What the Austen? Podcast

Episode 14: Sense and Sensibility's Edward Ferrars and what makes a hero with Ellis @Historian_Ellis

June 18, 2022 What the Austen? Season 1 Episode 14
What the Austen? Podcast
Episode 14: Sense and Sensibility's Edward Ferrars and what makes a hero with Ellis @Historian_Ellis
Show Notes Transcript

Welcome to the fourteenth episode of the What the Austen? podcast! I'm your host Izzy, and I am joined by my friend and fellow Janeite Ellis from @historian_Ellis. In this episode, we discuss Jane Austen's novel Sense and Sensibility, specifically focusing on the character of Edward Ferrars and what makes a hero. 

Often in Jane Austen's work the hero only merits the title because they marry out protagonist, however in this episode we will see if Edward has qualities which warrant the title of hero in his own right. Edward is often seen as shy, unexciting and for many can be considered a bit of a coward. However, are we missing the more nuance aspects of his character and does he in fact have hero like qualities which often go unnoticed. We hope you will join us in reconsidering Edward as not only a hero but a romantic partner we can all aspire to have. 

This podcast is about Janeites coming together, discussing Jane Austen's work, and having a few laughs along the way. 

We really enjoyed making this episode and we hope you like it! 

Please follow and subscribe to keep up with all the upcoming episodes.

Where can you find Ellis?
Historian Ellis Blog: https://historianellis.wordpress.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/historian_ellis/
Etsy shop: https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/HistorianEllis?ref=ss_profile

Where can you find your host (Izzy)?
Website: www.whattheausten.com
Podcast Instagram: @whattheausten
Personal Instagram: @izzymeakin
Youtube: What the Austen? Podcast


Support the show

Where can you find your host (Izzy)?
Website: www.whattheausten.com
Podcast Instagram: @whattheausten
Personal Instagram: @izzy_meakin
Youtube: What the Austen? Podcast

Izzy

0:18  Hi, Janeites and welcome to episode 14 of the, What the Austen podcast today I'm joined by Ellis from the Insta page and blog @Historian_ellis. So Ellis joined me for some amazing episodes in the past on you're definitely a familiar voice on the podcast. So welcome back, Ellis.


Ellis

0:35  Yeah, I am really excited to be here again, as you know, I absolutely love coming on these podcasts. Definitely. It's just never a dull moment here and always, always happy to come on. Yeah.


Izzy

0:51  Oh, I'm so glad. So if you want to get to know Ellis a little bit more, the best bet is probably to head over to episode one. So Ellis was actually my first guest ever, and we did persuasion and lasting love, but, Ellis spoke a little bit more about how she finds Austen originally. So that's a good place to start. But today in this episode, we're going to be covering sense and sensibility and, particularly Edward Farrars. So this is going to be a sort of sister episode to the episode I did with Caily on Colonel Brandon. I think Edward like colonel Brandon is a really interesting hero because he isn't someone that stands out as a hero. And I, there were a lot of people in the Austen community feel, the same. But compared to the other Austen heroes, he isn't really one that you root for. That's always how I felt anyway, a little bit about Edward. But he's just not really the exciting one. And I've always thought he's not very interested, but we're going to look at some in a little bit more detail. And, before we start, I thought I'd cover a couple of bits about heroes in general. So in the Oxford dictionary, a person who is considered a hero is one who is admired by many people for doing something brave or good. Alternatively, somebody who has a particular quality or skillset, every suit, Joseph Campbell's book, a hero with a thousand faces and suggests that the hero needs to go on a journey, which is a circular journey to start. So the status quo, they go through loads of stuff, trials, tribulations, and then they come back to the status quo. But from that process, they're changed by their experiences. And so the actual quote unquote hero, I would say for sense of sensibility is more likely to be Marianne. But Elinor is definitely, a close competitor for that position. However, in the Jane Austen community, we do use the term hero slightly differently. Instead we use it to refer to the man that the heroin not only grows to love, but eventually marries. And, basically it's the resolution of the heroine's journey, which subsequently confirms the hero in Austen's work. So that being said, these male characters efficiently only need to gain the title of hero by the end of the novel. And they only gain it by marrying the heroines in a lot of ways. So, we'll be using the term hero like the Janus and community she does, mostly, but in gaining the qualification, we'll be looking at the qualities which fall more into the classic, hairy status, things like being brave, good giving on a journey, having a particular skill sets or qualities, Ellis thought. It would be good to look at Edward in more detail and see if he merits the title of hero prior to marrying Eleanor kind of more in a mist, a Dawsey sense. The fact that we still have Darcy, even if he wasn't with Elizabeth, because as he grows, you kind of gain those qualities of a hero for his actions and character development, oral tentatively. We may think that Elena is Edward saving grace, and he doesn't marry the title of hero other than the fact that he marries her in the end. So, yeah, on the topic and just Edward in general.


Ellis

3:55  Yes. So that is all really interesting stuff to me in terms of exploring what a hero is. And I would love to come back to that, I think at the end of the whole cost that's third, maybe, and see if also, still much up with that in terms of the definition for what a hero is. And also obviously how Jane Austen, view that as well. I mean, the phrase, when you said someone who is brave or good, I think it's something we need to definitely hold on to with ad words. But talking about advertising itself. 

So as you'd said, he's from Sense and Sensibility, he is one of, one of the male heroes in that book. So I mean his first description in the novel when we start the book is, you know, I mean, I read a quote. I feel like some, how often basically guide him. And it is, you know, Edward Farrars is not recommended today. Good opinion by any peculiar gracious of person or address, he was not handsome and to manage the client intimacy to make them pleasing. He was too, he's too dependent to do justice to himself, but when he's natural shyness overcome, his behavior gave every indication of an open affectionate art. His understanding was good and his education had given it a of improvement, but he does need to fitted by ability, no disposition on the wishes of mother and sister. We long to see him distinguished as they haunt me. I think that is a really big encapsulation of, the character were presented the way with Edward. I mean, he's, it's almost like, you know, he's, he's nice and that's about it. And people don't seem to think that he's remarkable in any way at this point.


Izzy

5:48  Yeah. And I think even further than that, he doesn't think he is. I think a lot of Edwards' character is just built on so much insecurity. And I think later in the book, he actually says that he's like, maybe because there's a lot of the times that people were fed to his shyness. I think even in that one that you just said that it's like the shyness character. And I think he says, you know, is it shyness or am I just kind of like filling in for my insecurities kind of thing? And yeah, I think he really struggles with the pressure that his family put on him. I had all those same quotes, but there's definitely this emphasis that they want to make him kind of this great man or a fine figure. But then there's a quote that says, but Edwards have no term for great men operations, all his wishes, sensitive, domestic comfort and the quiet of a private life. Fortunately, he had a younger brother who was more promising and I felt like that just sums up head it doesn't, he's like always like this pushed aside and they consider him not to be very significant.


Ellis

6:42  Yeah, definitely. And if we're going straight into the, the film adaptation, I, one of my favourite quotes when he's talking to Elena and she's asking him, you know, what do you want to do with your life basically? And he, he responds and says, you know what, I've have a one to just the quiet of a private life, have chickens and give very short term. And, you know, he wants to be, he wants to go into the church. He wants to have a quiet life, but he's sort of dictated by his family because his mother is in control of his fortune. And like you say, his brother that will have the opportunity to go and enjoy maybe more of life's pleasures than he does. And I think he still feels stuck with his GPS and not being able to actually be what he, he wants to do with his life. I don't think his life may be quite mapped out how he wanted it to, which I think is really interesting. And I also think that in terms of the impression we're given at the beginning of the book, I like this idea that I think Jane Austen is someone who comes back to that theme time and time again, first impressions of someone and perhaps not taking him exactly how we think he is at the moment. And there's a real big room here for understanding him father understanding him better. And he's actually perhaps more complex character than we give him credit for.


Izzy

8:06  Yeah. And I think what's really interesting with Edward is I think the narrative falls more on the side of Marianne's perception of Edward, especially at the start that it's like, she can accept. Yeah. He's like really love it. He's really loving and affectionate, and would make it a fantastic brother, but it's almost like he has no depth to him, but I think that, ed was like, like quite a unique hero in the sense that he is most sensitive. I feel like he has a lot more feminine qualities and he's a really considerate and kind person. And although he's not really like out there is like, you know, slaying the dragon a much, he really cares for the dashboards. And, I think he's just a bit more private than a lot of the other heroes.


Ellis

8:55  Yeah. That's really interesting. You say that about the more feminine characteristics as well. Cause I I've written down in my notes sort of exploring him was I was trying to compare him to maybe other characters that came later in Jane Austen and I in my head we'll compare them a little bit like a Jane Bennett in a way because she too is quite private and also, you know, they're both sort of flawed in that way that that will be too perfect and too nice. And I think people see that in them immediately. And then, you know, just like Maryanne or the passionate character beats her into trouble in a way Edward, his character sort of lead him into a different kind of traveling and a different kind of journey that he learned to deal with. I think, yeah, I see him as a bit of a male version of, of Jane Bennett. I think he's just showing me.


Izzy

9:55  Yeah, I know. I love that comparison. No, absolutely. That's that's a really good one. And again, even though we can, we liked Jay and I don't think she ever does stand out in comparison to Elizabeth. And like you said, maybe that's just because there's those, the bolder characters against them because, I feel like Edward falls in the same trap as cuddle Brendan, that we get this like description of veterans he's not hunting, so he's not very tall, he's a bit dull. And then obviously later we get the description of Willoughby who is handsome. He is tall. He's interesting. He's educated obviously. Will it be turns out to be the fill-in, but the point is the thing is when we first meet both of them, we don't know that. And so we compare that the kind of first impressions like you were saying, and I feel like once we will have eight, it kind of dumping Edwards carrots and was like, oh, this guy's a bit more excited and thank goodness kind of feeling.


Ellis

10:47  Yeah. You kind of forget that you were just like, oh, just forget about him. Perfect. Cause he's still about to picture for a while. They've, you know, they've been moved away and will it be coming on the scene? So yeah, if we start back at the beginning and Edward is first introduced, at the beginning of the book, because he comes to Nolan park by the Dashwood, who says mother or father just died. I now have to find some less names at the house. They’re feeling pretty pushed out now. And Edward comes along, he's invited to stay and actually him being makes things more comfortable and his presence is actually welcome to the Gosford sisters near to Maryanne and Anna Margaret and their mother. And pretty soon, Alan, uh, quietly formed an attachment, a sort of appreciation for Edward. And I think it's recognised by her and assisted by her mom. And it's a really lovely attachment in a way that it's still done slowly. And I liked the way it's portrayed in the film with brown, because it just shows this very lovely friendship building and everyone's quite aware of it, but then finding Dashwood.


Izzy

12:13  Her little digs to like Mrs. Dash, but it's different. She's like I just guarantee and like Mrs. Dash was like, oh, maybe he he'll choose to marry for love instead. And she's like, nah,


Ellis

12:31  I think whoever plays or not film, it's just spot on. But, but yeah, he comes and it's really lovely to see him because he's still best friends, the youngest daughter as well. And I think it's con the film tries to encapsulate all these good qualities that I would have, which is that, you know, he's open to people. He can be quite shy at first, but once he befriends people, he's, he's really, really lovely. And he's quite funny as well.


Izzy

12:58  Yeah, I think like the first description I've been really pushes that, that it's like, when she'd get to know Edward better, you see his qualities, the fact that he's, you know, really affectionate and has a really good heart, but because he's shy, it's like you have to form more of an intimate connection with them to actually get to know him better. And I think what I think why Edward's probably so sad for it was like, especially like most of the book is because I feel like his family don't know him at all.


Ellis

13:24  No, I feel like they were completely opposite to him and they don't take trouble to get to know him. It's like, know this moment on the staircase, in the film where funny, like being rude about them again, I'm saying how, you know, she doesn't even think Margaret exists because she hasn't seen us the whole time. She'd be mad, she'd be hiding away. And he turns it around. And then he says three days in their mind. They're funny. They have just all that. Their lives may never the same. Again, I love that quote in the film that really encapsulate that idea of Edward who actually he's a deep thinker. He, he also recognises how other people are feeling. He's pretty aware of how other people are feeling. And I think that's a really wonderful quality.


Izzy

14:06  Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think it's a quality that's really nicely balanced if Alan as personality as well, because I feel like she, she takes the time to like consider stuff. She's not like Marianne and just like bloods things out every so often. Like she reflects on every sin and Edwards very similar to that. And I think what's nice, like you were saying in the film is that you see those moments with them on their own growing that friendship and that they can kind of like talk to one another and understand one another, that they're not necessarily the most outspoken, but it doesn't mean that they don't notice or care.


Ellis

14:38  Yeah, that's definitely it. And I said this moment in the book where Marianne is talking to, I don't know about trying to prepare really to see what her feelings are. And Elena says to her, she replies when she's talking about Edelman. And she says, this really sort of lovely passage of describing him. And she says, no, the excellence of his understanding and his principles can be concealed and you buy doc shyness, which too often keeps in silence. I ventured the pronounce that his mind is what informed his enjoyment of books. Great is imagination wisely, his observation just and correct. I mean, it tastes delicate and pure at first sight. His address is Stephanie not striking and his passing can hardly be called handsome. So the expression of his eyes, which are uncommonly dirt and the general sweetness, his countenance is deceived. And this for me, this is really lovely. Other than that, his truly fallen in love with someone who does not fit that perfect idea of what a hero should be, but it's how our idea of what she wants to find an amount and possibly one of the most relatable and realistic, but still romantic pairings of the book.


Izzy

15:46  No, absolutely. And I don't think a Mr. Darcy would be suited for Eleanor. Anyway. I think she needed an Edward, somebody that is quiet and more reflective personality. And I think Edward wouldn't necessarily be that quiet. I think his family bike are the reasons why he's like that. Like you can tell that he's always searching for family. I think that's why he gets on with the dashboard so much and really loves his time with them. Because I think he's such in for that, you know, sense of belonging with somebody, anybody. And I think that's probably why, I mean, we'll get into this later, but why he kind of jumps into the situation with Mr. Price and then eventually Lucy steel as well.


Ellis

16:26  Yeah. Yeah, definitely. He's, you know, he comes across to Dashwood and he finds the ankle something that perhaps he'd been looking for and that she find finds people that he can relate to and be himself with. You know, and then it says enough that, you know, she thinks that he's he's lively and affectionate and fun in his own way. And I think, like you say, once that shyness is overcome, you know, she can appreciate that side of them. And maybe it's a side of him that he doesn't actually show too many people.


Izzy

16:58  Well, I cited him that he doesn't even recognise he has himself. Like, I feel like he's so he's so bad at recognising his own qualities. I feel like he pushes themselves down all the time. And I think it's lovely that Eleanor sees qualities in him that even he wouldn't see in himself, he thinks all of like his, like the fact that he's shy and the fact that he's kind of quieter or the fact that he's more reflective. He, he thinks all of those things are really bad qualities about him. I think there's a section later on in the book where, Mrs. Dashlane says, I'm sure you, you know, you you'd raise sons that are independent and can do anything they want because she knows that's what he wants. And he goes, I would raise sons that are nothing like me, not in action, not encouraged. So not in anything Ms. Dashwood like you do yourself a disservice, like you have great qualities. Like it's so sad that he feels like he's totally,.


Ellis

17:49  He’s unhappy in himself isn't he too much on the, on the negative thing is I think that also what makes his genuine wonderful one, because we'll talk at the end buttons at the end, but it's, you know, someone like that is you can have the happy ending as well. Everyone does a happy ending. And I think it's wonderful that he goes on this journey because I think again, it is a relatable. So when they told journey, he's perhaps one of the more ordinary heroes of this,.


Izzy

18:16  Is there anything else you want to say about, when we first initially meet him or are you okay to move on to when he goes to Barton cottage?


Ellis

18:25  We've pretty much covered everything.


Izzy

18:27  It's actually the first couple of chapters where we meet Edward and then it's not until I think around chapter 16 when he comes back, when he turns up at Barton cottage. So there's about like 10 to 13 chapters between his light of his absence. And obviously in that time, a lot of our thoughts have moved over to will it be in Marianne? So he's kind of pushed aside a little bit and also thoughts will it be left at this point? So when they see this gentleman rising upon a horse, Marianne goes running up because she thinks it's Willoughby. And then she realizes it's Edward. And I love this line from the book. It said he was the only person in the world who had not moment could have been forgiven for not being Willoughby. And I just loved that because I think it just, obviously we know how like in factories in is Willoughby. And I just think it shows that he has such a good bond with the dashboards that she's literally miserable about anything that isn't to do with Willoughby at the moment, but she sees Edward and she's still happy to see him because I think he is kind of like this honorary civil into this,.


Ellis

19:28  But I love that line as well.


Izzy

19:29  And then he does 10 up, but his like mannerisms and the way he behaves is very odd, like at this point. So Marianne observes that he's really cold, to Eleanor and obviously Maryanne expects true like romantic notions, but, Alan, or it says that she's even like a little bit confused at why there's like no mark of affection anymore. I think this part is really sad for Elena because they had such a great bond, but then there's a quote that says his coldness and reserve modified her severely. She was vexed and half angry by it resolving to regulate her behaviour towards him by the past, not the presence. And so it's like, she, she's thinking about like that past relationship and thinking it was great. And she's trying to not let the way that he's behaving now dumping all of that. And it's like, she avoided every appearance of her statements will displeasure. And I think what's released that about basis. I think in this point, Edward forces, Eleanor to go, to be more closed off in whether that's his situation or like his character in general, because he behaves in this way. I think this is one of the reasons why a lot of people really don't like Edward, because I think all of the secrecy just creates a really like toxic vibe around him and Eleanor.


Ellis

20:43  She's almost blaming herself, like you said, she blamed herself for acting too warm towards him being too friendly maybe, and say she gets embarrassed, she gets cold. She thinks, why did I act like that when he clearly, you know, that was clearly not what his intentions were. And now I just embarrassed myself because I'm not close to forward. You know, she's said be really conscious that she acted in a certain way and he's suddenly acting really differently. And so, because it was quite a long time ago as well, maybe it feels like, you know, it wasn't what she thought it was. And I think it's really sad then that she's made to feel like that. And that is again, like you say, potentially something, that people find frustrating with that because he sort of implemented as the pain on Atlanta in that respect.


Izzy

21:27  Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like there's some more, like, really interesting bits about this trip when he goes and visits them. One is, his relationship with Marianne, which I love in this part of the book, because there's so much bonds between them. And there's one bit in particular where, basically Mrs. Jennings and, I can't remember what her son's called, but the other guy who turns up and they turn up and they start talking about Willoughby and they're like, oh, we wish we could be here. And ed kind of picks up on the conversation. He realises that maybe Marianne's got this, something going on with another, with, with somebody. And he goes to Marianne, he goes, I've been guessing, shall I tell you my guests? He says that will it be hugs? And it was like in relation to a joke that they had before and Maryann goes, oh Edward, how can you, but the time will come my hope and I'm sure you will like him. And Edward says, I do not doubt it. And I just think there shows like such a bond between them. Like obviously they ha they go backwards and forwards because Edward's very different and personality and doesn't enjoy the, what he, what they consider the picturesque is Marianne does. But I just think they have these really great moments of uncertainty. And I think that's another reason why Eleanor really likes him because she kind of holds the family together. And I think the fact that he fits in so well means a lot to her.


Ellis

22:43  Yeah, definitely. I was going to say about the family stuff, because actually, you know, he's, he's someone that holds family values. I think that's something actually that reflects, Jane Austen's values. If you still look around that Perez me or the book. And I also read somewhere that her favourite heroes were, I mean, it was as in Bertram, apparently with Jane often, I don't know whether this was ingest because she doesn't matter with Jamie, but to me that sort of brings up that thing of, you know, what these men have in common is the loyalty to those around them and sort of the family values you can think of Mr. Knightley. He's very involved in the family. You know, Edmund is perhaps not our, our, again, our idea of a hero, but he's very much involved in the family and looking after the family, because his older brother is off doing other things. And, you know, he looks after he's the only one that looks after Fanny really in that case when she's younger. And then, you know, you've got Edward berries and this one where he's really, again, I think he has a family, a family man. He understands, his GC morals in that, you know, the moral of the story. I think these are one of the things I'm into what makes a hero. What makes someone who you want to marry and spend the rest of your life with someone who cares about you and your family.


Izzy

24:10  And there's a great line. Just before he leaves, it says his greatest happiness was in being with them. And again, I mean, even Darcy has like really strong family values. He holds his father's watch. He looks after Georgiana. I think you're right. I think Austen really notices the importance in male characters that they need to have these family values.


Ellis

24:30  Uh huh. They stick to their clear observation. You know, we still thought Jane Austen as someone who she observed the life around her, she would love the people around real loyalty, friendship and family, uh, hold very high. And that is why these are reflected in the male hero is because actually that is what makes a good product. And that's what makes someone here you want to spend the rest of your life with,.


Izzy

24:53  There's one, there's another moment in this section of the book, I want to talk about it. Just super awkward. And that's when they noticed the hat in the ring and Eleanor thinks that he's like stolen a piece of her hair now, I'm sorry. If he had done that, that's hosted where I've written him off as being, for me, I would have been like, that's so creepy, but you just deal like a piece of somebody's hair. You know, I fill out the hair situation. Okay. You guys talk about this all the time to secretly do it. And Eleanor has that full she's like, oh my God, did he like steal that? Just like when I didn't know. And she tries to brush it aside, but I think equally she thinks low that's when she keeps looking after thinking, I was definitely my hat. See it isn't her hat. And he tries to say, it's funny her, but this is like a weird old thing. I feel like we all sat there going whose hair as well. Like, is it Eleanor? Did he steal it? Like what's going on here?


Ellis

25:49  So we soon learn then I think.


Izzy

25:52  It's slightly literary a little bit later, like Edward leaves and then Lucy.


Ellis

25:58  Yeah. So this lady called Lucy Steel, even her name just gives me like, yeah. One of the more annoying characters. But well, well done, well done character in the book. So these are still arrived. She is a friend of a friend.


Izzy

26:26  Yeah. She's kind of like this distant, not really friends with anyone, but people seem to take her in because she's like, you know, pretty and just like fun and bubbly. Deep down. She's not a nice person. I honestly hate least she's still so much. She is like such a villain.


Ellis

26:43  Again. Whoever plays in the film with because the way she talks literally makes my skin girl.


Izzy

26:54  Oh, she's so calculated though. She's such a fantastic character. I feel like Austen writes calculated characters so well, and Lucy is like so calculated. So I think it all comes out because Mrs. Jenkins continues to tease about the mystery. Obviously they actually know who Mr. F is now, but they continue to have this running joke about it. And I think, and obviously the conversation of Pharaoh's comes up because he's obviously been visiting like recently. And at that point I think, Lucy then starts to go off to Eleanor. And I think what's really telling is Lucy even admits to Eleanor. She says like, I'm a very jealous woman. Like we are deemed not yet. Yeah. Well, she tries to pretend like she's friends with Eleanor. And basically what she does is she confesses a secret to Eleanor that she is in fact engaged Edward Farrars. And this is like such a shock to Eleanor. The Ellen was like, I'm sorry, we must be talking about the wrong girl. You want about Robert? But like you got.


Ellis

27:59  Horrible thing to do because she makes out like she's confessing it because like she feels she has no one to talk to. And she values her friendship with Elena. She, that's not the case. She's sort of forced this friendship with Eleanor because she is jealous and because she still wants to find out what's happening. So I noticed to just make her back off completely. She'd been pretending to be in a whole like.


Izzy

28:26  And she forces Eleanor to keep like the worst secret in the world. But basically the person that Eleanor loves is already engaged to somebody else.


Ellis 28:34 

Yeah. I just think it’s horrible. And she says, she's not relaxed and confident. And we know what Ellen is like in the character. She's going to take that. Although this is the most heartbreaking news, she's just so good that she will tell anyone is to now. She has.


Izzy

28:55  Every time she's around Eleanor, she has to like expand on the story. You know, Edwards kept it a secret because he doesn't want us to be living off no money. Cause basically what would happen if Edward's mom found out she cut him off because she controls his fortune and Lucy's not the kind of person that she would want him to mammary. And so, basically she just keeps like turning this wheel and say more about like Edward and how they met and how they're like still in love and how they've been waiting for like four years. And what have you. And what's awful is the more that Eleanor gets to know Lucy's personality. You can tell, it even goes beyond like being upset for herself. She actually starts being upset for Edward because she doesn't want him to end up with such an awful person.


Ellis

29:39  She begins to realise what this is life. And like you say, I think that's there as well. And she doesn't even, she feels very much trapped in a friendship now because she has been trapped into it. And so I think this is one of the, again, one of the reasons why people all very much kind of frustrated sort of maybe they get frustrated with the way that this is being handled and thinking that why didn't he reveal? So you know that this is, uh, you know, that this has happened. Is he a bit of a coward because he hasn't revealed or told anyone the way he's just sort of let it play out. And now it's affecting other people. Not just,.


Izzy

30:21  I know he goes into this saying that this is like a sense of honour that he should stick with Lucy and like keep the engagement going. But for me, the more honourable thing to do would be to come clean. Like even though I hate Lucy, I think it's honourable to put somebody in a Loveless marriage just because you gave them your word. Do you know what I mean? I redraw the, somebody break off the engagement so they could be with the person they actually love then marry me and it'd be a Loveless marriage. Do you know what I mean?


Ellis

30:47  Yeah, I totally get that. I miss is I'm going to stop telling the table study because I support Edward. He does based on a few things, because like I say, ultimately as an audience, now I'm looking at what he does. I think we'd be very much shocked that someone would do that if we had about that, if one of our finalists had done that, but on the other hand, putting sort of my historian hat on from that, we have to sort of understand the context of the time and also what Jane tried to tell us. So, you know, courtship and engagement has set an advocate at the time. I think if a man for costly engagement, it was seen as a massive breaches in flight advocate in court chef, I think basically it would do the lady more harm than the man that meant that if the mom breaks off, it would actually ruin her reputation more than it would his. So based on that point, that's the point alone. It's actually more honourable for him to keep going with the engagement until maybe she broke it off because he's actually, it's less embarrassing, to hide. And he's actually thinking more about her feelings by not breaking engagements because actually she would look like why a time when I conduct etiquette with a massive thing, the you different types of literature, such as, you know, instructional literature that your conduct books, which told you how to behave in your private life, which included masters of courtship and marriage. People would really be, people would stick by these. And it's just another aspect of the context of what was happening during this time. I know what y'all fall on that.


Izzy

32:42  I love that. No, I'm glad you brought your, like your historian hat with you because yeah, I totally get that. And I think sometimes, yeah, it's difficult when you're reading it because you're like, you can, like for me, when I read the, my whole sandwich on the romantic side of things, and I think I forget sometimes the context of the time period and you're so right. It would have affected Lucy so much. And even though we don't likely say, Edward such a good natured person, that he wouldn't do that to anybody the only really all to think about this engagement. And I do feel bad. Fred would a little way because he says like later in the book that it was kind of childish and he didn't know enough about the world and he didn't know what he was supposed to do. And I think Lucy was probably the first pass and he found kind of some form of affection with Mr. Pratt and felt a sense of belonging. And so I think he may be rushed into it because of that. But in terms of like his actual situation, you can tell it was really childish because Edward's situation in life. It would never have made sense for him to propose to Lucy and the fact that he proposes without like his mom's permission or anything like that, considering she holds the Fort, you all just shows this kind of image immaturity. And I think what's really interesting about this is it's very similar to like, will it be in Frank Churchill, their situation, but like you said, it's like the difference with Edward is he actually does have a sense of honour and he wouldn't put a woman in a really rubbish situation. Obviously Frank Churchill still goes ahead and marries Jean Fairfax, but he's really cruel to her. And a lot of the time running up to that, trying to keep it a secret Edwards, never cruel to Lucy. And he also obviously does hurt Alan or I don't think he does so intentionally, like he couldn't help that he actually fell in love with Eleanor. I think he says later in the book, like he'd never seen like probably properly seen or like understood a woman before. So he felt fully safe. And then as he was like introduced the world and other women, he realised it was just like a childish.


Ellis

34:42  I really agree with that because yeah, in terms of the different storyline with new Jane Fairfax and Frank Church where he's more outgoing as all in who he is and his strings or Mr. Along a little bit, he's very cool to, to Jane. And I think Edward realises sooner the situation he's in and trying to make the best of it. I think he's almost resigned to it now. And let's say she, she ended the engagement and made it a bit harder. He was probably sort of all right with it. And then now I've met. I, and now it's all a spanner in the works.


Izzy

35:18  It's obviously as the fact that, his family know nothing about this and they've actually in, in many ways, married him off to Ms. Morton. Who's like another port in the game, considering Edward isn't like everybody, a fun, favourite hero. He has a hell of a lot of women up through. So Ms. Morton's also there and she's got quite a big inheritance. She's really wealthy. And so that's where his family are expecting him to marry. He's already engaged to Lucy, but actually he's in love with Eleanor. I mean, this is beyond the triangle. It's more like a frickin square at this point. So we've got like people blue people in the game. Okay. So the next part in the book is, a lot later on again. So he's, beans bought and that's all finished. And then he appears in Linden. Now this is super awkward. And in fact, the narrative actually says that he says it was a very awkward moment and the continence of each showed that it was so basically at least see an Eleanor in a room together and they had the dual go and who should it be? What is Edward coming through the door? And this is the first time the three of them have been together in the same room. And, oh my Lord, is this an awkward chapter? So chapter 35 guys, if you want some awkward feelings, this is what you need to read because it's bad. It's really bad.


Ellis

36:36  I defined it hilarious. Well again, so in the film he walks in to the room. Alan is bare wasting pen because she has, uh, I guess it was getting split tasks or house that she's in. And then he will literally straight to her and Lucy is by wait. And then he suddenly realises that she's that. And I think he goes to see her. He goes to see Elena before he goes to find Lucy which -


Izzy 37:15 

I think he goes to tell the truth to Eleanor or like, say to like, look, he's not going to come out now anyway, I'm really sorry. But then Lucy's just like there.


Ellis

37:24  And this is look at your past Eleanor and Lucy. And I just think the whole.


Izzy

37:30  It's obviously boldness is it's one of the most awkward stem scenes. I was so cringy about it is Marianne runs into the room and she's like, oh, hi dude, blah, blah, blah. And she doesn't know anything about Lee CC, like Lucy and Edward been together. So she's like, why are you being so like cold to me and Elena like going like grease.


Ellis

37:52  Yeah, you're going to stay, you're going to whatever. Have you been with this? And she's really excited to see him. And again, it's that thing because she's also just got suffered again, not heartbreak from Willoughby. And again, he's the only person that could turn out to make a properly, like, feel better.


Izzy

38:12  So this is the big reveal. And I think, I mean, do you want to chat about like, what editor's reaction is to this? When he goes to his mom, when she kind of says, like, you've got to cut it off with Lucy.


Ellis

38:21 He basically ultimate he's done by her doesn't care is the ultimate thing. And she then, well, we know that she does cut him off the money in terms of his inheritance. And it's handed over to brother, John Dashwood comes to the house, whether why they are in London and basically tells him what's going on and explains everything. And he says, you know, nothing would prevail him to give up the engagement. He would stand to, it cost him what it might. And then Mrs. Jennings, who is like, well, if it was just a hilarious character again, in the film, I think she's portrayed amazingly. She says everything, how it is, or you can trust that. What she says is really what she believes. And she replies and says, she goes, she says, then card missile Genius was blunt sincerity. He has acted like an honest man. I beg your pardon, Mr. Dashwood. But if he had done otherwise, I should have thought him a rascal. So it sort of in a way, everyone realises that he's actually been done badly. I think for a lot of people, they sort of see their eyes. They think that he's still like in love with her value and she's enough with him. And I don't think they quite understand how maybe deeper the problem lies, but for them, they just see it as already as I do. It's been a good man because he's not only stood by her, but why should people be separated and in love if they are, I think for them, they see as in a way they sort of forget about because they realise what's happened, you know, they'd been teasing Elena, but then they realise, they think that he's absolutely in love with this new CNA. So we wanted to work. A lot of people that are reaching for him.


Izzy 40:08 

I know, yes. Including Colonel Brandon, well, nothing previously. So he knows that he's been caught. So Colonel Brandon says to Eleanor, look, I'm willing to give him the clergyman position on my estate. But it's not worth a lot. And he says to Eleanor, he can't marry Lucy on this amount. What do you want to say to him? Because, because what Edward's mom does is irreversible it now no longer matters who Edward should marry. He's always going to be coughed. So I think a lot of people forget that as well. There is no kind of going back from this now it's being cough alive, that's it? It's done. And so Colonel Brandon kind of goes through and says, look, I can give you a live in, you can't my release you on it though. And he, he still says, no, doesn't he he's like, no Oliver. See, I need to stick with Lucy. Lucy is not somebody who wants to live with tight purse strings. She wants to get the money all along. And that becomes a very clear later, when Edward turns off and the dashboards start congratulating, they're like, oh, how was Mrs. Farrars? And Edward goes, well, you know, my mum was fine, but it actually turns out is because Lucy is not married to Edward. Lucy in fact is now gone and married his brother, Robert, who is now the ad to the Pharaoh's fortune. And because probably it doesn't have to ask permission from his mom. He was able to just Mary Lee say in, in terms of personality wise, they are much better fit.


Ellis 

41:36  Kind of, I think it's going to be great to talk to us, like, you know, the suspense of it as well. And when they're all bad, like, oh, you know, how, how is she, did you know, how was the wedding, all this stuff. And it's later on in the conversation with everyone to send me re-analyze what happens. And then it just becomes too much for her. And she just literally runs out the room.


Izzy

41:59  Right. And going off what you said about the fact that, at the time it was like, basically not impossible, but if you were a decent person, it was kind of impossible to break off an engagement as a man. Then, this is like this whole time. It makes, that makes it so much more poignant. How hard it must be for Alan or because it's not even like there's any hope left. Like she's just got to go with the pace is now a know that she can't ever be with Edward. And I think that's why she breaks down so much when he says that Lucy's married Robert, because it's, it's like such, such a tough like moment. I can't even imagine.


Ellis

42:37  Because again, she has had to resign herself to the fact that things can never be different and she knows that it's the right thing to do, but obviously it's hard because she's the one that's suffering. And as a quote in chapter 35. So when this is all coming out and, they said, you know, I'm very sure that conscience only kept Edward from Harley street. And I really believe he has the most status conscious in the world most in performing every engagement, however, my niece, and however it may make against his interest or pleasure. He is the most fearful of giving pain of wounding expectation on the most incapable of being selfish of anybody. I have a tool which I think sums up this facile between the fact that he's trying, he's only taking spinning plates. Excuse me. He's maybe trying to keep everyone happy, trying to keep his mom happy because yes. So, you know, the fortune is trying to keep Lucy happy and he's, you know, not some massive commitment. And then he realizes the other people are not on both. How is he going to explain himself to Elena? How is he going to keep himself happy? You know, Maryanne that she's become close to him in a I assist anyway, like he said, and I think it's.


Izzy

43:59  And I think what's really sad is he always goes on about the fact that he's like, all I want is this simple life. Like, I think this is a really great quote that goes around and I, as well as everybody else wish to be perfectly happy, but like everyone else, it must be in my own way. Greatness will not meet me. So, and I think that's such a so powerful, but also so sad. He always seems to far from his own happiness. And it's not like he's asking for a lot. He's not after like riches and like the most beautiful woman ever. He's not like after anything bizarre. He's literally just after a simple life and just wants independence. I think that's his main desire in life is to be independent and make his own choices. And I think that's why it's so bitter that she should not only give Robert the fortune, but that she should also give him the independence, the Edwards craved.


Ellis

44:51  And he wanted, because Edward himself has trapped himself in the engagement with Lisi. But then even if he wasn't in that engagement, I feel like his mum would have forced them to marry Ms. Morton because she doesn't care. Like she doesn't care to be able to switch product. He doesn't marry, but, she does mine. So either way, he's, he just feels like, be a needle. It's like a pool and his name was moved around and placed where people see fit to have him.


Izzy

45:21  He's going to be disinherited and he's not going to at Lee say, and then we find out and fight Lucy Mary's robber. Yeah. It's just like such a wild card with the chops is considering he's missing for like off the book. He comes back and it's like full piece of hedged, like everything.


Ellis

45:40  Yeah. Every, every change in the story. Yeah. It's great.


Izzy

45:48  Yeah. I mean, eventually it kind of, it all kind of works out in, do you want to talk a little bit about like that proposal, the proposal to Eleanor in the end when he actually turns up and everything's cleared up about, he was married to, uh, like Shakespeare, isn't it,.


Ellis

46:03  This book and itself, the sort of actual marriage proposal at the end kind of flat. I think they're not, perhaps the various.


Izzy

46:12  Austen says the funniest thing in there. She says, oh my God, this, this lion kills me. Obviously it says it was only to ask Elena to marry him and quote, it says, and considering he was not all together in experience in such a question, it might be strange that he should feel uncomfortable in the present case as he really did as much in need of encouragement and fresh air. Like, it's so good for me. So witty that she's like, he's not inexperienced, this he's already asked somebody once. So, it's surprising that he's nervous,.


Ellis

46:45  But they do try and make it a little bit nicer for this. I can say, because he says it's already lovely nine. He says, you know, my heart is and always really lovely, but yeah, the actual it's sort of just happy, doesn't it at the end, sometimes they get engaged, but I was sort of reflecting on this a little bit in terms of what does, what does that mean? Why do we not get much of the, sort of where I'm at now? We've got proposals, we've got, couching won't work in his letter that was just too romantic. And with this, we don't get that quite as much, but also again, I think I theme in all of the books is the fact that I think for Jane often, it was probably the journey to marriage, to character growth, to social commentary through the novels that was important in most of novels. Like I guess in Mansfield Park. Well, if it was managed as brushed off rather quickly, a lot of people aren't convinced with kindness and Marianne ending whilst in Emma, her wedding is described as a wedding, just like other weddings. So instead the book focuses on the character journey, you know, and the title of it, the battle between characteristics, you know, you've got pride, prejudice, ability, persuasion, Jane is a people of the, not what she does that she likes to write about seriously and ingest as well. And I think we're exploring what sense and what sensibility is. And this case is more important.


Izzy

48:21  Yeah, there was a couple of really nice lines. Like it says a woman whom he long ceased to love. And I think a lot of his proposal to Eleanor is basically justifying the fact that he was with Lucy. Like he said, his, it says his heart was now open to Eleanor. Well, its weaknesses, all its errors confess and his first boyish attachment to Lucy treated with all the philosophic, dignity of 24. So I think it's more about him kind of the things that we've disliked about him and saying, he's not actually a bad guy.


Ellis

48:54  Bad guy, everything's out in the open, actually what's back then learn the truth and knowing everything about your partner and nothing being hit in the mouth. They understand each other more than they did at the beginning. They've gone from thinking that they are in love and thinking that they knew each other's pack to now really understanding what, you know, what they've been through in life. And they've actually journey that Lucy spiel issue together in a way it's not thrown together because of that and how to deal with it. And now everything about me and they can use, it's probably grown a lot from that.


Izzy

49:34  His shyness has completely gone and he's nervous to go into the proposal. It's not in the same way that he's being, like reserved and secrecy if like secretive before this is like, he's open. Like he even says like, his heart was now open to Eleanor and I think his heartbeat and open, opens up his character, like in he's able to relax and actually being more competent. I don't think he realised that a lot of his flaws were literally down to the fact that he was like concealing this secret from everybody and holding onto all this anxiety. I actually think ed was probably a happier, more fun character. When he's not holding onto that burden.


Ellis

50:14  It's almost like, well, what are at least I can be able to now have this, all this burden off her shoulders and to just be able to stand there, the class, how much he loves Eleanor and look forward to the future. I mean, it would just completely change how we, how we now can look at his future and his life. And I can definitely reflect on that whole openness and just say that. Yeah.


Izzy

50:43  And I think as well, this really is, is one of the main reasons I think that we can consider Edward a hero in his own, right? Is that he goes on this journey. He has all of his trials and tribulations with at least the steel situation with this family overcoming that, that he actually has to face one of his biggest fears, which is actually being caught often. Even though he longs for independence, he has no idea what that means for him. And so he's actually thrown into that. Lucy then doesn't want to marry him and he is just like on his own nothing to lose. And he is able to pick up the courage to go back to Eleanor and say, actually, I am in love with you. I've always loved you. And I still want to, and I want to be with you.


Ellis

51:27  Yeah. What a brave thing to do after all of that embarrassment will not come or goes into here. Invites is wrong. And that's what brings me on himself today. I did. If we compare that to the villain of the story, if we're talking about here is, and then we've got, you know, got Willoughby, compare that with, and he doesn't really write it wrong. He doesn't go on a journey. The Edwards goes on. And in many ways, Edward actions as opposite to the way will it be at, which is highlight the fact that he's a bit of an unsung hero. I think also what Austen was doing at the time was the character of Edward. Who's sort of a flex sense of identity. He was shy, reserved, not, you know, he doesn't express his emotions very well. He feels emotions, but he doesn't express it. And just because she didn't express, it doesn't mean you don't feel it. That makes sense. No, not with Eleanor. And I think she baffles with in reality, these other qualities are far more important. You know,.


Izzy

52:33  Like a classic hero is that they have qualities that are admired by others. And I think all the way through the book Edwards, like true heart is admired by everybody. Like everybody says, like what kind decent person he is. Nobody says anything bad about Edward. No one has anything bad to say about Edward. He, he does do the right thing always. And I think because of that, I think in his own, right, he does have hero qualities. Even if he hadn't ended up with Tylenol, we can still agree that he's a decent male male cart.


Ellis

53:07  Yeah. And I think if you think about it, uh, for women, I probably didn't have that much free. It was almost any coming in where maybe women had a little bit more choice about who they marry and, you know, romance and things like that. But for being able to fall in love with someone like Edward, I mean, not ideal, that's the dream country more. Could you want me to treat you well? And you know, I mean, why Marianne at first didn't understand because she thinks, you know, why that you like some more exciting actually you doing brush aside, someone look off to you, what is a hero in this situation?


Ellis

53:48  Whillougby it be who professed to be a romantic guy backing you up rainy, rainy field. And then I think actually emphasises the moral of the story in that way. You know, success in love is actually a mixture of both and ability,.


Izzy

54:09  I think. Can we agree that maybe her, Edward does, does deserve the title of hero even without Eleanor?


Ellis

54:20  Wow. Yes. It's my read. I find out, I just think for me on census that is related to you as being a book as well. For me, why? I think when I started reading Austen, it was sort of one that didn't initially appeal to me. Now. I probably a bit more like you start off as a bit of a Marianne when you start reading off and you want that excitement and you'll be pride and prejudice probably as the first one and exciting is not, you know, the right amount of salt. And then as I've gone a little bit older, I've re-read quite a few times again, not the others. And actually it's one that's really grown on me and actually speaks to me more than I felt it did previously. But I think ed which virus can come across bit boring, basic, not exciting, but I think his character is way more complex when we give credit for.


Izzy

55:14  Yeah. A hundred percent. I'm Colonel Brandon as well. It's been so good to kind of go into more detail into both of those characters. So if you missed the Colonel Brandon episode, and that was an earlier episode that I did with Caily and, I think both those carrots you're right. You've got to, you've got to really dive into them in much more detail. And when you do, you actually realise it does make you question, what is it that actually makes a good husband, a good lover, a good hero. And I think both of them have these kind of hidden qualities that when you pull them out, you go, wow. Actually, they're really great guys. I really enjoyed doing this episode. Its theme is people love. So thanks again for joining me. And on that note, where can people find you?


Ellis

56:12  I'm mostly on Instagram, so I'm @historian_Ellis on the school and I'm on there just as a lot of similar Jane Austen content on. I've also other things like I studied History at uni. I did my masters and my undergrad in history. So on that, it's just, I like to sort of think of it now as a space for it. So just a little bit of me. So if you like any of these things, then come say hello.


Izzy

56:45  I love it, it’s great. Yeah. I recommend following, Ellis. I love your content, so that's great. And, that's everything from us and we'll see you in the next episode.