Welcome to the eighteenth episode of the What the Austen? podcast! I'm your host Izzy, and I am joined by my friend and fellow Janeite Ann from @disneyprincesslessons and @paper.hearts.library. We are back and today we are covering the villains in Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility and comparing them against Disney Villains.
Don't miss out on our other episodes:
Pride and Prejudice villains (Ep 15)
Mansfield Park villains (Ep 17)
Disney Princesses x Jane Austen Heroine (Ep 8)
This podcast is about Janeites coming together, discussing Jane Austen's work, and having a few laughs along the way.
We really enjoyed making this episode and we hope you like it.
Next in this series we will be covering Emma (ep 20)
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Izzy's recommendation: The Jane Austen Collection: An Audible Original Drama
Izzy Meakin 00:00
Hi janeites If you're listening please follow and subscribe. It really helps to grow the podcast and for me to bring you more episodes Hi, Janeites and welcome to episode 18 of the what the Austen podcast and we're continuing on our Disney villain times Austen villain journey and is back on the pad with me today. So welcome back. And
oh, thanks so much for having me. I have so much fun talking about Austen with you. I love that you love Disney and Austen and I love to hear that so many listeners are kindred spirits. And you guys love Austen and Disney as well. It's a two great fandoms
Izzy Meakin 00:52
absolutely no two of my favourite loves. So today we'll be covering the villains in Sense and Sensibility. And we'll be comparing them against Disney Villains. So I'm excited to do this episode. There are some really interesting villains in this novel. And the first villain from sensibility to cover as Willoughby. And so my will be Link was Hans from Frozen, who've already kind of introduced. I do have a couple more, but he was my main one, I think they have so many similarities. Even though Willoughby doesn't set out to break Mary Ann's heart, he still does with that letter that he sends obviously, it's actually Miss Grey that writes it. But in the same way, Hans, obviously, I want to say he breaks on his heart, but he definitely shapes her perception of romance and love. Because when she first meets her and she thinks she's in love with him, she thinks it's love. And then he kind of shakes that by just basically saying none of it was true. And that's exactly what will it be says in the letter to Mary? And he says it was it wasn't true. I wasn't, I didn't have feelings for you. I'm sorry that you misunderstood. So I think those two things make them really similar. Another one that I had on the list, because a lot of these aren't like fully it was like together, I think they make up his character. The next one was hook. And I think that's just because will it be is kind of manipulative, and savvy. And I think it's kind of the same. He's able to manipulate Tinkerbell and his crew members. And also, I think it's interesting that Willoughby tends to find loopholes to get out of things. And Captain Hooks really good at finding loopholes as well, in documents, that kind of thing. So I thought, yeah, that's quite similar between the two of them. And yeah, I think for instance, Captain Hook says that he won't lay a finger on Peter Pan, and so then he takes a bomb instead, because it won't actually be him killing him is the bomb. But do you think, like, will it be seems to get out of things that he's done? So obviously, the woman that he impregnates, he seems to slide out of that, courting Marianne and then cutting things off. He's going to slide out of that. And it's, yeah, I just looked really similar. And then the last one that I had was crunk. And that's because they think he's easily manipulated by older women, so Miss Grey. So I thought that was quite similar between Miss green Willoughby and Kronk and an ESA. And I think Willoughby could just be a bit of a Nazi as well and struggle with balancing what's right and wrong. And I think he sometimes just makes decisions based on the moment and not really thinking about the consequences.
Yeah, that's great. I didn't think about that. I really liked that. And he's, you know, the handsome piece of man that Kronk is supposed to be.
Izzy Meakin 03:48
Funny. Who do you have full ability?
Well, I had Hans, definitely absolutely agree. And I've said this in the princess podcast, but whenever your Disney fan tells me they want to get into Austen, I always say if you love Frozen, read Sense and Sensibility because they have so many similarities. And I feel like I I absolutely agree with what you're saying, as far as we'll be kind of like hurting Maryann, with the MS. Grey letter. I feel like that equates so well with Han saying like, you know, No, I've never loved you and you kind of act like you thought somebody would love you. And that's foolish. And that's kind of how that letter comes across. Even though it's written by Ms. Grey. That is how that letter comes across. But I would say even the will of B didn't have the intention to hurt Mary and it's not in that same sort of way. He does say to Eleanor, when he comes back when he's drunk and Mary and second he comes back which I always hate that that's not in the in the Emma Thompson since insensibility version of the movie, but when he comes back, he does say that he had the initial intent to just basically amuse himself, you know, just see if she could she could fall in love with him so well. It's not the same kind of thing like you're not doing it for money or, you know to take over a kingdom. I think that you could definitely say that they their intentions aren't weren't great to begin with. It's just that he actually did fall in love with her versus Hans not falling in love with Ana. And I feel like the you know, the ANA Hans Christoph dynamic. So similar to Brandon, will it be Maryanne and like I said earlier, Hans completely fooled me. I feel like Will it be was another one of those who fooled me because I was I was definitely 17 or 18. When I read it totally in love was Willoughby, and I was the guy that comes out of the fog, you're like, oh, my gosh, and then then he's horrible. And he reads poetry and he's like, this is wonderful. But think again, says Austen, never trust it. Never trust an overly charming man. If we had taken Austen's advice, we would have been in the theatre at frozen. And we would have known better with Hans. And will be cares more about money and status in than love. And that's exactly Hans, even though it's a completely different sort of thing. They still choose money and status over over love. I mean, Hans never loves on it, but it's still he doesn't give himself that possibility to love because he cares about money and status.
Izzy Meakin 06:12
Yeah, I love that. Absolutely. 100% I agree. Do you have anyone else for Willoughby?
Just like a little minor one, circling back to Brom Bones from the adventures of Mr. Toad and or Adventures of MakerBot crane and Mr. Toad. It goes by quite a few names. Some people call it diligently because anyway, that one that movie that we were talking about with a headless horseman. One thing that's kind of interesting is the dynamic between Brom Bones and the school teacher. Aquebogue crane. Brom Bones always is under estimating the school teacher who he thinks is less than and I feel I feel like Willoughby even though he doesn't really see Brandon as a rival, he still seems like he sees Brandon as a rival. He's always kind of having to make fun of them. And he's always sort of under estimating, Brandon. And so I think there's like a little bit of a similarity there with that kind of arrogance.
Izzy Meakin 07:08
Yeah, 100% I agree. That's a really good thing there as well. Okay, so the next one, have you got any more you want to add for? For well, about is Nope, that is everything. Okay, the next villain I have on the list is Lucy Steele. So I'll see who I've got for this one. And I've got a couple. But I think my first one is Madame Medusa from the rescuers. Good. Yeah. So I feel like they share certain characteristics. So my producer is fixated on a single goal. She's desperate for this diamond. She's like, I want the diamond, I've got to have the Devil's Eye. And she's obsessed with it. And I think that's very similar to Lucy. And she's very determined to have wealth and money and better status in society. And I think they're both very manipulative for it. So yeah, very, very socially scheming. I think both of them are self interested. Obviously, because Lucy spends most of the novels secretly engaged to Edwards. And most of her actions are to ensure that that stays intact, basically exposing it to Eleanor because they think she can tell there's something between them and befriend Ian Edwards, Sister Fanny, and the obviously backfires. But then Lucy seems to manage to bring it back. And she gets Robert instead. So I think Lucy is actually much more sneaky, the madam ladies because my name reduces very much upfront about her craziness. And she's definitely more visually appealing and soft spoken. So I think she's able to hide behind her looks and charms a bit more. Which is why I've got a couple of other people on the list. So the other one that I have is I want to say is it a bellwether, do you from zoo topless, the she Yes. So she comes across all nice, and from the offset looks like really cute and friendly. she behaves really cute and friendly. But then when you actually you actually find out later on that she's actually the mastermind behind the whole plot. So I thought it was really similar to LISI. It's like she comes across like superficially. And like, on the exterior side of things. She comes across as like this nice, sweet woman who's just you know, in the marriage market like everyone else, but it actually turns out to be much more calculated then that it actually helps you plan and that's all exposed later on. So yeah, I've also put her on the list for Lucy Steele. And also the last one I have is Hades and literally just because Hades uses love to emotionally manipulate and blackmail people. Like with Meg and the fact that she will, she sacrifices her soul for someone that she used to love and he runs off and then you He uses Hercules to emotionally blackmailer as well. And I think that's really similar to the way that Lucy emotionally manipulates and kind of blackmails Eleanor and sustain secret about the engagements. And I 100% believe that Lucy knows about Elena and Edward having a connection. Definitely. He just twists it and uses it and makes Allen really suffer for it. So I think that's really similar between Hades and Mac.
I like that. Yeah, I didn't think of I didn't think of Hades or Medusa I didn't think of of either one of those. I really like that a lot. That's the two good one especially with the manipulating love connection. Lucy is one of my I don't know, like I don't have favourite villains like I like I love that character think anything well over I would say she's my favourite villain. And just the fact that she is so well written like she's so well put together because she's so complex, and she is so irritating and manipulative and just all it's just, I don't know, just everything about her is just so well done.
Izzy Meakin 11:04
It makes you cringe, because you're just like, oh my gosh, but also I feel like she's so real. Like, there's definitely people that you can meet in your life. You're very much a Lucy. And oh, yeah, that's what makes her more terrifying. It's like she she could definitely be somebody that you know.
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like she's she's one of Austen's most three dimensional villains. To me. I just think she's so well written. And so well done.
Izzy Meakin 11:27
Yeah, 100%. I totally agree with that. I'd love to know who your comparisons are for?
Well, my top one was Bellwether, so I had to grin when you said,
Izzy Meakin 11:36
yeah. Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
It's exactly everything you said. She's so sticky, sweet and has it hidden evil agenda, and I just thought it just fits so perfectly. And have to say, I think it's so interesting. I think I'd heard this before I think in the UK, you guys call it Zoo. droplist then is that what the name of that movie is? For you?
Izzy Meakin 11:54
Yes. Z Triple S Yeah,
it's Zootopia for us. Isn't that so strange?
Izzy Meakin 12:00
Only that is so strange. I had no idea. I remember because
I follow some, some UK Disney fans on you know, on Instagram and such. And so I feel like I remember seeing people when it came out saying I'm going to see the zoo tribalists. And I was like, that is so strange. And I looked it up and it was, you know, everyone calls it Zootopia here it's so weird that they changed the name but anyway, that is a complete aside. So absolutely agree with that. I don't have anything to add to that because I thought it was amazing. I did struggle with Lucy Steele until I came up with that one. And it was like, Oh, this works really well. But another one I had that is not exactly. But I feel like has elements is mother gospel from tangle. She is she's for those who don't haven't watched tangled, which you should because it's amazing. It's like my second favourite princess movie after beating the beasts. But mother gospel steals Rapunzel away when she has a child because she has magic hair that glows when she sings to quote Rapunzel. This magic hair heals people It makes them useful. And so Mother gospels steals her away from her king and queen parents. And you know, locks her in a tower like the classic Rapunzel story. And but I think Mother gospel is a very complex and interesting villain. She's probably another like, favourite Disney villain not listen to that. I like her because I absolutely hate her. But I like if from our like a writing perspective, I think she's really pretty. Yeah, I feel like she has the same level of complexity that Lucy has. So that's part of why I picked her. But I think they're both kind of nurse narcissistic. And they're both passive aggressive. I was thinking about the way that Lucy is just so patronising and passive aggressive to Eleanor. And that's exactly what other gospel is to Rapunzel. And she also Lucy uses guilt to manipulate Eleanor and that is something that mother gospel does with Rapunzel, because we're pregnant is a really sweet, naive, good person. And I wouldn't say that Eleanor is naive, but she has a very strict moral code and she is a good person and there are certain things that she wouldn't do if someone you know, someone says don't tell, you know that I'm marrying Edward, like she knows that Eleanor is not going to tell and that's kind of like mother gospel was Rapunzel she tries to manipulate her into not leaving the tower and you know, various things like he tells her false versions of things like even mother Gospel tells Rapunzel that that Flynn writer has has left her when that isn't the case he's she's helped in a kidnapping fun Flynn, you know, actually does care about her pencil, but it's that same sort of manipulation that Lucy still uses to manipulate Eleanor into believing a false reality and other gospel is constantly telling Rapunzel a false reality a false version of the world is scary can't go outside of this tower. You know, Ruffins will kill you, you know, all of these sorts of things. And well, it's not exactly it's not the same at all was what Lucy is telling Eleanor and Eleanor's doesn't really have that much in common with her pencil. It's that same level of manipulation of here's the reality you thought this was reality but here's the actual reality and it isn't the reality, but it's this idea of Edward actually loves me. So you don't have a chance, you know. And so it's this. It's a complete lie. And it's a very subtle manipulative lie.
Izzy Meakin 15:12
Yes. Oh my gosh. 100%. I love it. Definitely that emotional manipulation. So similar between the two of them? Absolutely. Yeah. Amazing. Do you have anyone else who makes you still you want to add? Or is that you wrapped it up? There? That is my list for amazing. So I have one more on the list for Sense and Sensibility? Is that the thing for you? And Robert Paris? Robert Ferris. Yeah, he's the last one. I did struggle with him. Sadly, I think more because we don't get too much of his character. I didn't think in the books or in the in the adaptations of it. But I did pick a couple of people. And one of them was the queen of hearts. And that was just that moment to moment living kind of being not that intelligence very got quite a bad temper, not that you really see where we're at first, like, having a temper about anything, but he's very much unpredictable, a little bit. Well, he's not very strategic whatsoever. He just does things and it makes no sense. You're just like, what, and there's a little bit like the queen of hearts, where she's just completely unpredictable, just random things at times. And also, I think they're both cowards in reality and the Queen's code when she sees Alice growing, she gets really freaked out. And, Robert, I think he's a bit of a coward as well, because he doesn't stand up for his brother. And he just he goes longer as family, but then he actually does the exact same things that he was saying that his brother would make a massive mistake for doing so it makes no sense to me. And then I actually just have one more for Robert and that is King John. And again, I think that's just that low self esteem really bad with money but obsessed with money. Superficial and I just don't even like Sorry. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. So King Jones from Robin Hood. And yes, so he and also he's like He is the younger brother in the same way that King John is. And yeah, he's just like, not very good with the with that possession. He's like the childish and bizarre younger brother so I thought that was a link as well between them.
Although those are great. I did not think of either one of those and and actually, as soon as you said the Queen of Hearts, I loved it. Because one of my absolute favourite quotes from sentence sensibility popped in my mind, I just pulled it up here. I keep some of my favourite literary quotes in my, in my notes on my phone, just because I'm a nerd like that. Love it. favourite quotes from since insensibility it's not actually spoken out loud. But it's like Austen's narration. And it's this interaction between Eleanor and Robert Ferris I think they're in a shop where he's getting gloves or something isn't isn't getting gloves or the little box or he's getting something kind of ridiculous at the shop in London. And he's saying all kinds of ridiculous things. And the the narration says that Eleanor, something like Eleanor thought that he didn't deserve the compliment of rational opposition, which made me think about the queen of hearts because the whole thing was Wonderland is that there's no rationality there. And so I just thought that's so perfect, because the Queen of Hearts doesn't really deserve the complement of rational opposition, because you just can't be rational with her. So that is such a great comparison. I love it. I didn't think of that at all.
Izzy Meakin 18:31
Oh, my gosh, I love that you just like strengthen the argument. So amazing.
That's a good one. And I feel like that is that is just my favourite quote. It's like something I would love to say to people. You know, when you're just talking to someone who's just talking complete nonsense, you know, you just want to be like, you know, I'm not even gonna respond to you. Because you don't deserve the compliment of a rational opposition. And it's just, it's awesome. It's such a great quote.
Izzy Meakin 18:54
I would love to say yes. So funny.
So from mine, I really struggled with him too. But I actually kind of I know I mentioned it before, but I kind of went back to Lucifer the cat from Cinderella just because I think of Robert parents as completely ridiculous. He's his family's pet. He's smug. Like the cat. The cat really doesn't have a big agenda and Cinderella he's just kind of like there and delights and other people's misery. And I feel like Robert, Robert Paris, like just delights in other people's misery. He's just sort of a side character who's there? Who just, you know, he likes to gossip, it seems like like, it's just seems like he's just, I don't know, he's just he's not really like a true bully, but it's not like a perfect fit. But you know, he thinks he's better than everyone which the cat thinks he's better than everyone and the cat just sort of like gets all of his pompous personality from being a member of Lady domains like family and being kind of better than Cinderella, even and so I just, I don't know, I think he's like the second son. He's like the petitive family and he gets all of his self esteem out of just being part of that. In this family even though it's like he's not very important, at least at first
Izzy Meakin 20:05
is brilliant. It literally is just like a pet so funny is I need you just like he goes
around preening himself. I mean, it's not like you really see loose for doing this too much, but you just think of cats like preening themselves all the time.
Izzy Meakin 20:17
So, absolutely. And you know what I was really annoyed that it was too difficult for me to please people for Robert because when I thought about him how he's portrayed in the adaptations, I was like, he looks like somebody who'd be like an awkward sidekick to a villain or a villain and I knew what it was about him but it's like it's just got this awkwardness about him in is a period. Yeah, absolutely. That was everybody on my list for sensibility. Do you have any other comments you want to make or anyone else? No, that is it. We hope you've enjoyed this and thanks so much. And it's been so much fun. Like I really enjoyed going through it the villains, but don't worry if you're enjoying the series, there was more content to come this year. We have another three novels to cover and here is a sneak peek of the next instalment. Okay, so the first one on my list for Emma is just
but I just think it's interesting her ability within any circle or any kind of person that she could just zero in on that hypocrisy and call it out.
Izzy Meakin 21:17
Or my first link to Frank Churchill is Jack's skeleton from Nightmare Before Christmas.
Oh, that's great. One of my favourite parts of the whole book is witnesses. Ellen keeps calling Mr. Knightley nightly and then me so sad about it. Love that.
Izzy Meakin 21:34
That's good. Oh my gosh. Well, we're here to kick things off, head over to my Instagram for all things Jane Austen and for all the updates and Ann’s info that will be in the bio. So go ahead and check all of her content out. Her YouTube stuff is great and also on Instagram as well. So I will see you in the next episode.