What the Austen? Podcast

Episode 19: Jane Austen's Harriet Smith and why she is all that and a bag of chips with Bontle @colourful_litchi

September 10, 2022 Season 1 Episode 19
What the Austen? Podcast
Episode 19: Jane Austen's Harriet Smith and why she is all that and a bag of chips with Bontle @colourful_litchi
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Welcome to the nineteenth episode of the What the Austen? podcast! I'm your host Izzy and I am joined by my friend and fellow Janeite Bontle from @colourful_litchi. In this episode, we will discuss Harriet Smith a character who is often overlooked as the unassuming  friend who is heavily led by Emma.
Myself and Bontle are here to tell you that Harriet deserves her time in the spotlight, celebrating her development throughout the novel. In many ways Emma is not just a growing of age novel about Emma Woodhouse, we will argue Harriet could be seen as a protagonist in her own right.

This podcast is about Janeites coming together, discussing Jane Austen's work, and having a few laughs along the way.

We really enjoyed making this episode and we hope you like it.

Where can you find Bontle?
Instagram: @colourful_litchi
Youtube: https://youtube.com/c/BontleLanga
Podcast: 1 A.M CLUB PODCAST | Linktree 
Instagram: @1amclub_za 

Where can you find your host (Izzy)?
Website: www.whattheausten.com
Podcast Instagram: @whattheausten
Personal Instagram: @izzymeakin
Youtube: What the Austen? Podcast

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Website: www.whattheausten.com
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Izzy Meakin  00:18

Hi Janeites and welcome to episode 19 of the what the Austen podcast today I'm joined by Bontle who never fails to make me laugh. I feel like we have the same sense of humour. But Bontle has loads going on. And she has an Instagram where she shares all about books, but also the baking that she's doing. And she shares some more stuff on her YouTube channel as well. And then she also has a sibling podcast called The 1am Club.

 

Bontle  00:41

Hi, everyone, my name is Bontle. Nice to meet you all. I'm a great fan of this podcast. I think that's the best way to start this off. And like as you said, I have a YouTube channel where I don't only talk about books, I occasionally talk about like natural hair stuff, baking and vlogs. And on my Instagram as well. I have a bit funny about calling myself a Bookstagram ah, I'm active in the South African Bookstagram community. Oh, and I'm and I'm South African. But yeah, I'm active in the Bookstagram community and the J Knight community as well. However, I'm still like a baby J knights which I've come to terms with. But yeah, corrente really launched me into that.

 

Izzy Meakin  01:20

I love that. That's so cool. No, that's what you would definitely Baby Jane. i We're here for you got this. It's absolutely cool. And we're really excited about this episode today because we're going to focus on a character that I think doesn't get a lot of airtime. And that is Harriet Smith. So when I was rereading all of the sections on Emma and Harriet Smith together, I thought oh my goodness, we see her thinking and like Emma has so much character development, but I feel like we totally under appreciate Harriet's character development at the start of the novel. I mean, we're going to go into this in much more depth guys, but at the start of the novel, obviously Harriet Smith is cannot make up her own mind or anything. And she is like so dependent on Emma. That's how it all appears. Yeah. I mean, what are your first initial thoughts? Like when you first meet Harriet, what do you think?

 

02:11

I thought she was cute. Honestly, Chris, she reminds me of myself in terms of her in decisiveness. I'm an extremely indecisive person, especially when put on the spot. But then she started getting a tiny tiny tiny bit annoying I was just like, Come on girl there to have a little have a backbone cover who raised you covered and have some have some fire in your belly? But like you said, the the character development was evidence for me more in the movie, I saw like a bit more of her character development and in the book, but I'm glad that it was there anyway, cuz it would have been a bit sad for me to just see Harriet being the same throughout us.

 

Izzy Meakin  02:52

Oh, that's so interesting, because I feel so differently from the book to the movie. Oh my gosh, that's gonna be so fun to talk about. We'll get on to that, because I'm really excited to hear because you've literally just watched the movie, haven't you as well. An

 

03:05

hour ago, I finished watching it an hour ago. Yes. But listen, it's full the content is for Harriet, I needed to make sure I was getting every single detail about her life. noted down and in my brain. This was my first time ever reading and watching Emma. So I needed to pay more attention than usual.

 

Izzy Meakin  03:24

Oh, no, I love that as well. Because you're gonna come with such a fresh mindset on this. Because I feel like sometimes like, the more I reread things, the more like my ideas change, which is great in its own right, because it means that I can look at things in different ways and then, you know, change my own opinions on things as I grow up or like what time passes. But I feel like so many janeites Like, what was it like when I first read like X, Y and Zed? So I love that this is like I'm catching you like fresh or Korean with it. I love it.

 

03:55

Yeah, yeah, I was excited to come up with that. I was a bit anxious because I was like, oh, a lot of people have more experience with James James works and stuff, but I was like, It's okay. It's okay to be a baby Jada, it's

 

Izzy Meakin  04:06

it's okay. So I thought like a good quote to start with. It's like literally the initial time that we meet Harriet Smith. So it says Miss Smith was a girl of 17 Who m&e very well by sight, and along Felton interesting on account of her beauty. I feel like beauty comes up so much for Harriet like it's it's one of those things that's like, reoccurring in her description. I'm like, I bet you notice that as well. It's like all the time is like, yes, she's really pretty. She's really beautiful. She's, you know, we'll get on to that. Okay, and then it says that Harriet Smith was the natural daughter of somebody. Somebody had placed her several years back at Mrs. Goddard school and somebody had lately raised her from the condition of scholar to that Apollo border. This was all that was generally known of her history. She had no visible friends but what have been acquired a hybrid. I think this is so interesting. Like she's genuinely like this blank slate. Yeah.

 

05:00

I agree with the no friends pod that was a bit confused when looking back at my notes because I was like, wasn't she very good friends with Elizabeth and Catherine Martin? Yes.

 

Izzy Meakin  05:11

Isn't that like such a weird comment? And I don't know whether it's like, are we just seeing this from Emma's perspective and she's like, only friends that like that can be counted as friends would be friends have a highest standing.

 

05:23

That's a point. That's a good point. Perhaps that's how I was thinking like, Oh, you don't have any friends of value? Because I don't think she throughout the book she gives looks like like, Girl you ain't gonna be friends with them with the Martins they get. Oh, I remember like being so annoyed on Harriet if you have like, Leave my friends alone. They were I was friends with them because friends with you, can you not? But yeah, she did have those two friends. And I'm sure she had a friend and Mrs. contract to some extent, even though it was going on was like more like a maternal figure. Ish. Yeah.

 

Izzy Meakin  06:00

No, I know what you mean. And maybe we are seeing it from MS perspective. And it's like Harriet is basically because I really think that Harriet and Emma's relationship is um, Emma does see her as a blank slate. And she's like, hang on a second. I can make my perfect friend. In this reread of Emma I noticed how lonely she actually is. And I thought maybe she saw Harriet’s is like, that's I can make my perfect friend out of Harriet Smith, because she's not really got foundation. She's not a well established family, like Emma is, or even Jane Fairfax is to an extent. And so it's like, wow, I can make this person who I want them to be in somebody that I could be friends with. Because I feel like she's really missing that kind of the young friend who's like her that she can hang out with. And I think she tries to make Harriet it that.

 

06:51

That's true. There's a quote that says that described her as a girl who wanted only a little more knowledge and elegance to be quite perfect. And that's funny to me, because it just reminds me like there's some Disney or Nickelodeon movie about building your perfect boyfriend. And it was this robot guy. I don't know it was some life lesson about you can't turn people into what you want them to be. Which, to some extent, I think is the case with Harriet. She couldn't. Emma in the end couldn't pull her away from her attachment to the Martins even though in Emma's perspective, like they were much below her. But Harriet still had a love for them. And Harriet still came from like a lower social standing. So yeah, Emma couldn't completely change her into her double.

 

Izzy Meakin  07:41

No. And I think it is really interesting when we'll let me more get more into this. But the journey that Harriet goes on, and how she does change, but I think her journey is almost a circle. In many ways. There are ways that I think she really develops as a person. Well, we'll see. We'll see. We'll get into the nitty gritty and we'll see if that's the case. I think, again, like on that point that mo kind of tries to create How are you in many ways is there's a quote that says for Mrs. Weston, there was nothing to be done for Harriet everything. I very much think that Emma thinks that she's got so much value to add to Harriet, it's easy to think, Oh, Harriet, it's really going to benefit from this relationship with Emma. Like Emma is going to do so much for Harriet all of this lot. But I actually think it's more the other way around. Like I think Emma needs Harriet more than Harriet it needs Emma.

 

08:32

Really, to some extent, I remember Mr. Knightley saying that and mentioning that Emma had gained from their friendship, and I acknowledge that but I couldn't really pinpoint how, like, personally when I was trying to gather my thoughts before this, I couldn't really pinpoint like, how necessarily how it changed her.

 

Izzy Meakin  08:51

I don't think she changes ama that much. I don't think she really changes Emma, but I think she I think Emma needs her more in the sense that Emma is like super lonely like she genuinely is she's, she's obviously got her father but her father is not really a companion to her because it's her father. He's older. He's obviously got some serious hypochondria situation going on. So you I mean, like he's sometimes not that fun to be around. She's not allowed to travel really because he's so anxious about it. She can't even travel to London to see her sister and nieces and nephews. So she is trapped in Highbury with the same society. Very few people are her equal. She's obviously got Mr. Knightley and then she's got the Westerns. But you know, Miss Taylor was her governess that's not a natural friend. It's kind of a friend that's kind of enforced because they staff in many ways, like I knew they have a good relationship, but the end of the day, like that's not a natural relationship, like that's been kind of enforced. And I just see her as like really lonely, which isn't a reason I've had However, before until this time, and I was like, wow, I think she really desperately needs Harriet.

 

10:05

But

 

Izzy Meakin  10:08

Harriet, it's not like she can't also let go with the fact that she needs somebody of her own social status. And she's like, how are you doesn't quite fit that how can I make Harriet it fit that which is why I think she gets this obsession with like trying to marry Harriet after somebody who in the grand scheme of things is not suitable for her.

 

10:25

That's exactly what I was thinking to some extent I was like, oh, maybe she's just looking for someone that who can love her friend but also she she couldn't get past the fact that Harriet is in a lower social standing so she's looking for ways to build up her social standing to carry on being friends with her I remember even at some point that they were saying the same thing of Mr. Matson they were like, Listen, he's perfect for you. And if I could I just wish he was a little bit higher in social standing then he would have been perfectly so same with Harriet she she was more willing I guess because it's Harriet, but she still was wishing so bad that she could somehow raise Harriet social status. I

 

Izzy Meakin  11:08

guess it's so true. And I feel like Harriet I don't think Harriet realises like social standing very much because I know you understand why not because she's been in the same society for so long like I think she accepts the Amazon queen of Highbury all if that luck, but I think it's not until Robert Martin proposes and and there's like, I could never have visited you at Abbey mill farm. I'm gonna get the page because I think it's it's really it's honestly such a weird situation. So Harriet comes running up to Emma's house. And she's super excited because she's just had this proposal. And I think this really shows Harriet's how green Harriet is to start with as well. So it says that and bearing in mind let's just let's let's get this clear. He said to be very in love with her and I think the lesson really shows that and also I feel like there's a scene like Le Ramallah is more referred a recollection of a moment when he literally travels like miles and miles to get her some walnuts. So like,

 

12:15

for the wolf, that's over.

 

Izzy Meakin  12:20

Let's be clear, Robert. Marty really loves Harriet Smith, as much as we can see how easy it is quite blonde to start with. Robert Martin sees a lot in a lesbian. Let's be clear, he's willing to travel miles for walnuts on his horse, just to make her happy. And Harriet, it comes to end with this letter. She's super excited because I think deep down we all know Harriet always loves Robert Martin. She's just so naive to her own thoughts and feelings that she's like, Oh, I, I need to speak to Mr. about this. So she goes to run into Emma with this thing. And she goes well, and And what shall I do? And Emma goes, What shall you do? In what respects? Do you mean God's the letter? In Then Emma proceeds to kind of pretend like she's not influencing Harriet's decision, but kind of is. And Harriet, it's like, Oh, you think I ought to refuse him? And then it says Harriet, it was silence with a little reserve of mana. Emma continued in, I feel like those moments where Harriet's just like silence. And you can just see that she's probably like thinking things through. You can tell that she does have her own thoughts. But I think she's at this moment. She literally cannot. She's just not got the backbone to like have a road, you know, I mean, to actually outwardly have her own thoughts. And so she depends so much on AMA. I don't know if you know that the starch stand up for herself. It is

 

13:43

you can see her trying to convey her emotions when she's like, while she's asking me what her opinion is. She's also adding in a little dash a little sprinkle of what her true opinions are, and hoping and will pick up on them and Emma's smart enough to like, notice that, that Harriet was trying to do that. But then she just be like, Okay, no, no, this is my opinion. And my opinion is right. But also I don't think she wouldn't have had the goal to do that. Had it not been for Harriet to like have a backbone? Yes. Emma's she's a woman of high society and her she knows that her opinion is valuable. But like she's not extremely disrespectful. So I don't think she would have behaved the way that she behaved. And to some extent like infantilized Harriet, like a little kid doesn't know what she's doing. If it hadn't been for Harriet, it's not having a backbone, even though that changed over time. And it it bothered me a little bit that like, there wasn't more of anger on Harriet's part towards me. I know I liked the friendship. I really do. But like, I wish Emma felt a bit more a bit more shame to the fact that she had ruined so many things in Harriet's life by Harriet being angry with her however, we saw that in the movie like she stormed off at some went away from Emma and Emma was sitting there shaken up. That's what I loved seeing I'm not sure if I missed it in the book or if like there was never an actual scene where Harriet just like stormed off because I remember in the first I'm not sure which guy it was was Mr. Mr. Yes with Mr. Elton. She was like, Oh no, no, I don't blame you. In fact, you're the only type of you're the only kind and and great friend who had ever seemed possible deem it possible in the first place like you thought so highly of me to even deem it possible. Which is not I don't know if this shakes me up a bit weird because she she's always just saying that Emma had good intentions, which she did. But like also, she had the intention of Oh, you're poor and I need to make you look rich so that you can be in my presence, which is a very shady way to make a friend.

 

Izzy Meakin  15:56

I yeah, I know what you mean. Absolutely. Do you always seen before that I think Emma needs Harriet more. I think this line really shows that so it goes indeed Harriet, it would have been a severe Pang to lose you but it must have been you would have thrown yourself out of all good society I must have given you up. And then she goes on to say you banished to Abby mill farm you can find to the society. And it's in this. She's honestly so dramatic about it. But Harriet literally turns around and goes, Oh, I never realised that he wouldn't be able to be my friend anymore if I married Robert Martin, and I think that really shows how unaware Harriet is of Emma's influence. The fact that Harriet it's like oh, I didn't know you wouldn't be my friend anymore. And I think that is the dangerous line is that actually this is like the start of Emma just slowly trying to be carried up in I think Harriet M is actually really nice about her in the sense that she's always seen how pretty she is. Like, Emma is not at all jealous of Harriet whatsoever in in many ways. She's a really good friend. She's always like Harriet so great. I really want to find you're a really great guy. I want to like lift you up and say to you that you can really see it that way. But also, you can see it in a selfish sense that M is like I can't go to Abby mill farm. I need a friend who's you know, more like me and, and all of this lot and I think Harriet notices all these slow little adjustments when it's like I couldn't be a friend. If you weren't having the farm then how are you all the cogs in Harriet's had a turning and she's like, oh, so if I married Robert Martin, I lose Emma as a friend. And it's like small little blackmail like situations like that. But I think Emma does like really discreetly throughout.

 

17:45

And one thing that particularly annoyed me so much of that image did was that she started with the Robert Robert Martin proposal. She was like, oh, it's girl I it's um, it's completely up to you. You're gonna make your opinion on that five minutes later okay, this is what you're gonna do. This is the game plan. That's how you go write your letter. This is all this this this this and I was like, Emily you literally just said and same with afterwards with when she thought that Harriet had a crush on Churchill, Mr. Churchill Frank. Yeah, she was like, Oh, I've given up matchmaking however I'm a call him back for you because I know that like on the Download girl. Yeah, you mean me to match make for you like the she'll she'll I don't think she's doing it on purpose, but maybe she is like she's just telling them that she won't do these things. Just so that they can be like a bit more like subdued and not chatted her about it, and then she'll still proceed to do matchmaking or she'll still proceed to to write the proposal response on her behalf it was very very annoying I found Emma cute in a little bit. Like I wasn't too mad at her but when those two times when she said she wasn't going to do something and then proceeded to do them I got very annoyed I was just like Emma girl Stop You know what you do it?

 

Izzy Meakin  19:05

No way Exactly. Which I think is the reason why a lot of people find Emily manipulative though. It's those moments and you will think Oh, hang on a second. I'm not a good friend and she's like manipulating Harriet and all of this up. I think at the start of the novel Harriet is like really? I don't want to say insecure because I think that's too strong a word. But I just think she's so unaware of her value. If that makes sense. Like Yeah true. Are you understand that she's not in like really high standing so she's not actually got that much to offer? But there's so many people who think like, you know, everyone says that she's really pretty Yeah, which isn't everything guys, but we'll see Mr. Knightley always says like, oh, actually, I had some good conversations with her. She's actually you know, quite interesting. And obviously Emma finds her interesting enough to spend. Literally she basically moves into Highbury. I'm not gonna lie. I think definitely the first volume in the book. She's basically living now. Hybrid. She's that all the time. And it's like how are you stayed over tonight? Harriet was here again. She's obviously interested enough. Emma keeps her around that much. And we know that Emma wouldn't want to be in the company as someone that annoys her look at Miss Bates, for instance. So true true. I think Harriet must be have a lot more going forward. You know what I mean? And I just don't think Emma would pick her up so much if she didn't, but I don't think Harriet recognises it at the start of the novel. I don't think she realises her value at all. Yeah, however, we then have Emma pushing the whole Mr. Elton situation. She's like you're any proper Martin? Because you can have Mr. Elton. I mean, there's few men obviously in Highbury, that they're just like pulling them. Who could you happen to see Mr. Elton? But he's single and a male

 

20:49

and rich and in like my social standing, you know? It's so strange to be how she went about. I wonder if like, she was just looking for a single rich guy for her friend. I don't think there was anything special about Mr. Elton. Besides the fact that he was a rich guy and that he was single. She was she was just looking for, obviously love for her friend or whatever, because she's such a romantic and she saw the success in her matchmaking abilities with Miss Taylor. But I also think that she was like, oh, we need to we need to bump your rank up. Which it makes me cringe a little bit because I used to think of Emma so highly before I realised that like her ulterior motives for finding a husband for Harriet.

 

Izzy Meakin  21:37

Yeah, I'm the same like I, I can't not like hammer because I really do like Emma. And there's a lot of parts of me that I relate to.

 

21:45

So but not this part.

 

Izzy Meakin  21:51

Also, what I think is really weird about it is ever goes, like has this weird thing about status. Like she refuses to go to the polls and everything because she's like, things that she needs. People have certain standing to be around her and everything. But I think deep down she doesn't actually believe that, if that makes sense. Like I feel think she thinks that's the way she needs to behave and to behave that way. But I don't think she actually feels that because she'll be around people of her social standard and she genuinely doesn't enjoy being around them, if that makes sense. Like the Elton's when flip him or Mr. Elton Mary's, Augustus and she's like, awful. Technically, that should be someone that in Emma's social standing that she should be able to be friends with. But Emma's like, No, I genuinely cannot stand this person in my life. I think Emma doesn't actually realise what she wants. And I think that's evident with obviously the Mr. Knightley situation but I think in other ways as well, she thinks she's making the perfect friend. Yeah. It obviously totally backfires. And so Emma does this whole thing where Mr. Knightley and she's like, I want you to be with Mr. Knight. We're not missing out. I'm sorry. I want you to be with Mr. Elton. And that obviously totally backfires. I actually think it genuinely makes me cringe that Emma does not see that Mr. Elton has feelings for her. Like I don't see the evidence of him having feelings for Harriet, like, Where does she pull this from? I'm sorry. Like, I don't like hurry. It's just they're like, Oh, does he like me? I'm so surprised. Like, I feel like how are you? Like, deep down is saying to me like, I've not seen any evidence of this, but I'm gonna take your word for it.

 

23:22

It was so weird to me trying to I honestly was fooled. I was a little bit fooled. And I was reading this article about how Emma is specifically an interesting one of Jane Austen's novels, because it's told from the perspective of Emma, so we're led to believe whatever believes, and I was caught in that trap for a while. I was like, Yeah, specifically, when they were taking Harriet's likeness when they were painting. Harriet, he kept on coming to look at how the painting was going. And honest to god, I was like, Oh, my gosh, is very so in love itself. Katie, what's this? Yeah, the like, this is coming at it. And then I was just like, oh, no, he was just doing that to, to, to, to be close to Emma to like, be to be close to him. I'm in conversation with Emma. And we also do see a bit of his, like, bumbling tendencies, even before the whole revelation has come out that that he in fact likes Emma. The way he was. He's just such an awkward guy. And as you see specifically in the in the movie, when we're first introduced to him, he's such a strange guy with the weirdest of mannerisms. And they're looking back at the book. He he is weird. Like he he annoys me here and there. And I'm sure Harriet as well. Maybe harried wouldn't be too like, I'm aware that she finds him annoying. Maybe she's just like, Oh, he's a guy who's richer than me. He can't possibly be annoying. But Emma does get annoyed by him here and there she is. This idiot to come on the be a bit more active in your pursuits of her Harriet's even without pieces of Harriet like sometimes just the interactions you'd find him very annoying.

 

Izzy Meakin  25:06

Literally this like Sheila moment when he's when she's painting hairier, and she's she has to try and get him to move away from behind. Because she's like, I can't paint like you're sat behind me. Because you're making me feel uncomfortable over there and read to us. And she's like, Oh, he did keep coming back to look at Harriet's paintings. And oh my gosh, this is why I love talking to somebody who's literally just read it. Because like I said, like, it's difficult after you've read the novels a few times, is difficult to remember what it was like to read them the first time. It's like, with pride and prejudice that the Wickham situation, I want to remember what it was like to first read that in field though, oh my gosh, no, that's shocking. He's a bad guy. And it's the same with these kinds of things. I love that. I can have your perspective on it. And you're like, actually, there was moments where I was like, oh, maybe he was Stelton dislike Harriet. And I think like, maybe I felt that way originally. It's really interesting. And I just, uh, yeah, I love that. I love that because it's something you lose, the more you reread the novels, you lose the initial shock philia

 

26:06

like to us Don't twist your plot anymore, you know?

 

Izzy Meakin  26:14

That's absolutely, I'm gonna start using that the flood does does not twist your plot no more. Okay. So basically, this all happens. And I feel like one of the moments that you think Mr. Elton does like Harriet is when he agrees to take the painting to London to have it framed and everything. He seems like so excited about all that, right.

 

26:32

Yeah. And in the movie as well, the free bit he came back with that was not cheap. That reference was not cheap. And I was thinking about, like, how it's convenient to kind of get your thing framed nowadays, but I'm sure it wasn't that easy to go and do that. Back then. So he put in a lot of work. And I was just like, all he really does. He really does like her. What a fool I was. But I mean, it's i i Can I appreciate that. Jane Austen was such a good author that she could convince me at least I don't know if I'm just a bit like, daft tiny bit when I didn't realise that he doesn't actually like her. But she was Jane Austen is really skilled in how she writes shall she wrote the book to be in Emma's perspective. So we really could like how Emma it also feels like it was convincing herself as like she's convincing herself first, then she has to convince Harriet and from these two convictions, were the We the readers are then convinced.

 

Izzy Meakin  27:35

Yeah, I feel like Emma is faced with a couple of red flags. And she kind of brushes them aside. She's like, Oh, maybe he's just doing it because he's trying not to be, you know, over the top. Or maybe he's doing this because he's trying to be more discreet, or, like, Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like there's a few moments that are red flag. She tries to talk herself out like, oh, no, that will be something else. The reason he's doing that, and I feel like how are you notices? The red flags more because there's a bit where Harriet says that Mr. Elton should really be in love with me, me of all people who did not know Him. So how are you? It's literally just that like, a new it kind of sounds like she's saying, Oh, well, we should he be in love with me. But it's also sounded like, why shouldn't you be in love with me?

 

28:19

This is this is quite a stretch. That's such a good point. I hadn't thought about the fact that Harriet was like, she could also pick up on the fact that this is a bit of a weird pairing. Besides the fact that I thought that she was just flattered that Oh, my word a rich man wants me whoo hoo. She must have also picked up on a few red flags here and there because Harriet, as much as we all were looking at heard from Emma's perspective as like a blank page blank slate and stuff. We do get to learn that Harriet really is smart. She went to a somewhat of a good school and she had a good she has good manners as Mr. Knightley said, so she must have fought these things. And again, I really, really, really appreciate how in the book, she got mad at Emma and Emma was aware that she was mad at her like that showed that was that was by that exact scene. I don't know the minutes and the second but if I could, it would be like, yes, in this moment, is when Harriet grew backbone. Because Harriet I mean, Emma needed to be shouted at at some point like he or she has Mr. Knightley who will constantly hear and then bring up the fact that like, Hey, girl, that's not right, you know? But she needed someone else like Harriet to table to be able to say like you You messed up and it's affecting me negatively. So feel bad about it.

 

Izzy Meakin  29:41

Yeah. And I think Emma obviously is quite shocked at myself and proposes to her not alone for the fact that she's like, Oh my god, I thought you were in love with Haribol so because she's like, well, what the hell Mr. Elton? Why would you think we would be together? What's hilarious about it is and was willing to stretch for Harriet and be like, yeah, how are you? With me? d'alton You know more wonderful things have happened. And then she's like Mr. Elton, why are you trying to stretch your thoughts to think that you could marry me? I just think that's so funny of Emma that she's willing to stretch for Harriet, but she can't accept other people stretch it.

 

30:14

Oh, my word can I slightly deviate from Harriet, I just want to talk about Mr. Elton for a second, right? So when I first read about it, I was so mad. I was like, just with him. I was like this bad done took us on a ride and He's so annoying then and then and I really don't like Mr. Elton, right? And then like, a few minutes later, I literally close the book and I was staring at my wall and I was like, if I was Mr. Elton maybe I would have reacted the same way imagined like you like you genuinely like if I liked the guy and he had a best friend. And then this guy thinks that I like his best friend and the only reason I care for his best friend is for this because of him like I remember Mr. Elton at some point said that I didn't care if Harriet was dead or alive besides of her being your friend or fancy English along the lines. So I feel for this to us you know even at the bowl when he refused to dance with Harriet. I felt that like right in my chest because she was crying in the movie but then I was also like, if I was missed if I if I saw a guy there and this guy convinced himself that I liked him because of his because his friend was telling him that I liked him and also be mad that I wouldn't want to dance with you. So this Elton we don't like him but I can see why he behaved the way that he did. However, I will never excuse him going and like forgetting six weeks later marrying Augusto whatever her name was I'm still mad about that. That's the one time where my righteous anger with Mr. Mr. Elton can come in. Or just like Sir stop that's that's I wasn't one of we who also you could eat evidently see that he only wanted to marry so a woman who was rich, right? Yeah, brides. Yeah, you can see the same the same characteristic and Miss Delta,

 

Izzy Meakin  32:14

but I just feel like Mr. Allison's got this like pompous like behaviour about him, which is why I think he's like, really suited for his wife. And I'm so glad he doesn't marry Harriet, because she's way too good for him. Can you imagine being ever and like him proposing to you and oh my god, I've literally got to tell my best friend that I was wrong. And on top of that, he's proposed to me that is like thought to be the cringes. I mean, I feel like Emma does feel it like in the book. She's like, Oh my god. This is hellish. For Harriet, how on earth am I going to break this to her? This is like, worst case scenario, and she feels like embarrassed and everything about it. Like gosh, did I Where did I miss all of this? And? I don't know. But that's like worst case scenario isn't that's gonna be such a cringy position. What weird things have to tell your best friend. Oh, yeah, I know. I was saying to you, like this guy had a crush on you. He really liked you. But actually, he liked me. And he asked me to marry him. Oh, sorry.

 

33:10

Yeah, it would have been particularly the Nike situation was a double homicide. I feel like that would was worse with Aaltonen because she liked him back. That one. In the movie. She got a whole nosebleed and she was like, I can't disappoint Harriet to get it. I was like, I feel the same way for you. I would not want to be the bearer of that news to say Hey, girl, it happened again. And this time I like you bet like can I steal your she mistakenly stole Harriet's man twice in a row. That's that's that's that's tough. That is really tough. Or I would die of embarrassment.

 

Izzy Meakin  33:45

Oh my god. So would I and also, I think Harriet's personality starts to shift slightly when Frank Church comes into picture so Frank Church comes in and M is slightly distracted by Frank. And I think in this time period that we don't really see if Harriet, she becomes more and more self confidence, which obviously ends up with her. Feeling like she's going to be with Mr. Knightley. But I feel like she starts to actually take on board everything that Emma has been saying for so long. It starts to sink in. And she starts to be quiet. Um, Mr. Elton? Oh my gosh, no. Why would I like do for Mr. Elton? And it's like, well, how are you before was like, Oh my gosh, Mr. Elton loves me. Isn't that amazing? Now she's like, Mr. Elton, this guy's far superior to ourselves. And it's so interesting that she shifts so much. And I think it's great that she forms this self confidence in herself that actually I'm kind of worth quite a lot and I think that's good. But at the same time, I think she gets this conflict between who she was and who am is trying to make her be in I think you see it you knew the scene where she sees the Martins in I think it's in Ford's like she's in a shop, she's getting shelter from the rain, and she bumps into them and she's oh my gosh, was the most awkward thing. Ever I bumped into him. And he was so nice in there's actually a moment where that she's literally acting. There's like a line that literally says that she basically wouldn't shut up about it like she was going on and on about the Martins. And I think that's old Harriet, coming back to the, into the scene. And as the book goes on, she performs this conflict between who Emma wants her to be and who she actually is. And I think she flicks between the two. That's such a good

 

35:27

point. The Ford seed made me cringe. I had to close my book and go take a turn about the room because I was pressed. But it was particularly if I can find the moment where when Elizabeth was the first one to walk up to her because she said that they made eye contact, and Elizabeth looked away and she was like, Oh, my God, right. But then Elizabeth because of the type, like Elizabeth didn't easily throw away their friendship that she didn't. She she wasn't rude to Harriet, so she didn't completely turn her nose up at Harriet. Maybe just fine. She said, Elizabeth Matson came up to me and asked me how I did and seemed ready to shake my hands if I would. I remember in the back of the book, shaking hands was like a whole, a whole thing because you're making physical contact. Like it's, it's something to be done between friends. And I feel like that was Elizabeth's way of saying, Hey, you kind of broke our hearts, but like, we're still friends. And then she even said, I remember she said she was sorry, we never met up until now, which I thought almost too kind. I also thought that too, because like if, like, I wouldn't really be friends with a guy who, who rejected my sister's offer to marry let's say like if my sister's actually proposed to a guy, and then now I see this guy in the shop. I'm going to look at him like Sir, especially if we weren't friends but because in this situation. Elizabeth and Harriet were friends. I really admire Elizabeth's niceness, her kindness towards Harriet. And it's funny to me that it shook Harriet up so much, because it seems that she genuinely forgot about how good friends they were before. So it shook her that Elizabeth would be so willing to, to to make amends.

 

Izzy Meakin  37:24

Is that not the saddest part about it? Like they're actually really nice people. And I think what's also awful is Harriet's reaction. Oh, dear, I was so miserable. I sure I must have seen as being as white as my gown. And then again, like later on, she says, I was utterly miserable, like, absolutely miserable. Like, I just think you would, I mean, you wouldn't be miserable in that situation. I would definitely brave the rain. I would enjoy that situation. The Martins are so kind. I think it's good that Harriet voices this to Emma, because I think Emma needs these little pangs of you actually, you know, basically ruined not. I know. They still be nice, too. But basically, you ruined my connections with a family who really loved me, took me in over the summer. The son was willing to marry me. I think Emma needs to know the sacrifices that Harriet makes to remain her friend in Emma. Although Emma really needs Harriet Harriet sacrifices so much to make Am I happy?

 

38:21

That is such a good point. I didn't think of that. It. It. It Whoa, this is why I love talking about books with someone who's read the book. Like, that's a perspective. I never thought about Saturday.

 

Izzy Meakin  38:35

I was just like, I need to change the subject because I think deep down Emma feels bad about it. And she's always like, Oh my gosh, I need to change the subject away from the Martins because I think it makes her feel guilty. Because she wants she knows obviously Mr. Knightley is already been on a case about it. But every time Harriet brings the Martins up, it's she remembers, actually, that was my doing in many ways. And I think she has to confront it like all the time. And she's like, Oh, how are you? I can bring you around. What about you know, Frank Churchill, which Harriet is even like Frank Churchill anyway, but the point is Emma's point about Frank Churchill, also, I'm sorry, a little bit sloppy seconds there, because there was a point where I'm always like to I have feelings for Frank Churchill. I'm not sure but then she's like, how are you? What about Churchill? He He's a nice guy. I even follow him good enough for me at one point like

 

39:24

the Westerns also thought that like everyone thought that Mr. Churchill and her we're gonna get together and then she was like, yeah, maybe not.

 

Izzy Meakin  39:34

And then she flirts with them at the picnic. I'm sorry, this isn't this is the thing that actually really bothered me about it. If she's going on about how good of a fit she thinks Harriet and Frank Church will be. And then it will like literally like not 10 minutes later, but will like, you know, a day or two later, and she's actively flirting with Frank Churchill like she uses those terms herself. Why would you flirt with someone that you think is going to be your friend? That's really dodge?

 

39:58

Oh, there's a flip. Red Red thick. That is a very weird and it was, you see it's visible was with us so cringy because like I love him and I think she's really cool then I'm not on the debate side of Oh, bad Am I bad but like it's these types of just like if Amara, what the hell, man but the quiet like, why would you do something like that that's not a very good friend move. And it's sad because, like this time I think she was doing it on purpose. She knew that she was flirting, right? But then there's and she looks like a bad friend because of the consequences of her own actions. Right. But then there's other times like with the proposal where she looked like a bad friend, but it really wasn't her fault because she didn't know that Mr. Olufsen like to end it. Like she she looked like a bad friend. But it wasn't her fault. It was, it was the fault of no one to be quite honest. Like I said, I have a little bit on myself inside.

 

Izzy Meakin  40:51

Right. It was like more like arrogance or like, yeah, no, I knew what it was like militia. She didn't like maliciously go out. She was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna make you like Mr. Alpha, just so I can rip it away. Like that wasn't what?

 

41:03

Exactly, exactly. So it's a bit weird to me when like, it turns times like this when she's genuinely being a bad friend, and she needs to face the consequences of her actions. And then sometimes Wait, it's really not her fault. And she looks like a bad friend. But she isn't actively trying to be that

 

Izzy Meakin  41:20

that's tough. I know. And I genuinely think again, this comes down to Emma's loneliness. And I don't She's just never I knew she was friends with Miss Taylor. But like I said, that wasn't a natural friendship. This is the first time that she's had a friend who's of the same age as a, again, Frank Churchill, one of her first friends who actually have the same age. And she just makes so many mistakes with both of them. And I think it's because she's so naive to it. It's, it's actually bizarre is Emma's actually, the most even though everybody looks up to him and she thinks oh, Emma, she's so accomplished you so this and that. And there's actually the one who's got the most to learn out of everyone Frank's travel Jane Fairfax travelled, it's got tonnes of, you know, she's good at everything. Whatever. Harriet has been at a school, she's learnt loads of things. She's got connections with families and I know him he's got that as well. But it's really different. Emma's almost just put up by people's perceptions of her as opposed to anything she's actually learned herself. And Mr.

 

42:20

Knightley is Loki, the only one who acknowledges that there's a quote that said, the real and this it just it just clicked now like this quote and what you just said and aligned so perfectly that in the book, it says, The Real evils indeed of Emma's situation with the power of having rather too much her own way and the disposition to think a little too well of herself. These were the disadvantages which threatened to alloy to her many enjoyment. That's such a good point like she she people look at her for example, Miss Bates, like people just look at her as this grand woman who can never do anything wrong. So when she does do things wrong, she can't really process the fact that it's wrong and that she shouldn't do it again. In in and then that would then play into how she becomes friends with people like she doesn't really know how to treat people that well. Oh, no. Oh, that's so sad.

 

Izzy Meakin  43:23

No, I love him. I'm not trying to say that Ms. Necessarily, bad person. I think she she learned so much. I think that's why she spends a lot of it like having serious mental breakdown to me like, oh my gosh, I need to amend for this What have I done over and over again, like, she literally just messes up so much like throughout the novel and has to keep like, building on her character kind of thing. But I actually think Harriet deep down is a little bit like, I think there's even like at the picnic. I think Harriet is the only person that kind of stays with her. But I feel like Harriet it becomes more aware that Emma can make mistakes. And obviously she's experienced it firsthand with the Mr. Elton situation in I think Emma exposes a site to herself to Harriet that she never intended to, which is that Harriet actually gets to know me really well. In I think, maybe what makes Harriet more confident in herself is she notices Emma's flaws, and she realises actually, you have some good things going for me Why wouldn't people like me? Like why wouldn't you know the Frank Churchill's of the world on this dolphins of the world wanna marry me? Or better? What about Mr. Knightley? Like, do you know what you mean? Like I feel like Harriet it learns a lot by seeing how much Mmm

 

44:37

that's true. I somehow relate to that a little bit when people that you view as perfect make mistakes or you just see them in a different light and helps me realise that I shouldn't be viewing anyone as perfect or expect perfection for myself. So that's one point where I really did relate to Harriet. And then on the point of Mr. Knightley, quick like point It is that I was so confused when I was at the end of reading my book again, it really may have just been fatigue. It was like office three in the morning. However, I was so confused about how she went about, like, developing a crush on Mr. Knightley, it felt so, so random to me. And I was so confused until I watched the movie. They put a lot of emphasis on that scene where she just got humiliated by Mr. Elton because he said, I don't want that. He basically said I don't want to dance with her. Even though it was evident that he really could dance. And then like there's an opening in the crowd and Mr. Knightley is just watching this happen. And then she's she's crying, the poor girl is crying and he walks up to her and he's like, Hey, do the dogs and she's and then her face the I don't know which actor played and Harriet and Emma 2020 The 2020 version, but she did a great job of portraying how much that affected Harriet in the long run that she even remembered it. I'm not sure how long after the Gypsy incident happened maybe a few weeks or something. But she remembered it for that long because it shook her up so much just in her point of despair of to just be humiliated by myself and here comes her knight in shining armour, Mr. Knightley? Which also at first i To be honest, I could kind of see how Harriet pulled that. Oh my word. Does he like me because I was like, why would you ask her to dogs? But then it almost says at some point that that's just how Mr. Knightley is which made me like him so much more. He's just a very nice gentleman just like Mr. Woodhouse. They pay a lot of attention to the woman in their lives.

 

Izzy Meakin  46:41

But if Mr. Knightley had been a stranger to Emma, and had done that, how could How? How clearly can we say that Emma would turn around to it? Oh my gosh, that is a true act of love. Harriet, you need to like jump on that right away. Do you know what you mean? I feel like Emma's coming from the perception of I know Mr. Knightley so well and he would do that he was just being friendly. But had she seen it and it means somebody else like had it been Frank Churchill like the jibs, like literally the scene when she's attacked by those like kids on this like when she's like walking down the path. How quick is Emma like, oh my gosh, well, a true act of love. The point is that Harriet sees things the way Emma has wanting her to see them if that makes sense. So, Harriet, it seemed Mr. Knightley coming in rescuing her at the ball. She's going hang on a second. This is a true act of love. As Emma would have done had it not been Mr. Knightley is such a good

 

47:35

word. I did not think of it that way. That's so true. Harriet.

 

Izzy Meakin  47:40

It's been so conditioned by Emma. She's been so conditioned by her. To the point that Harriet's like, I can have anybody I want. Even Mr. Knightley

 

47:51

word. It's just hitting hard that he this is this is again the times where I'm like, I can understand why people don't like me because she does seem a little bit manipulative. But we made we still have a must. And Mr. Fanta, you know, she's still a cool person, but like AM.

 

Izzy Meakin  48:07

Yeah, but ever never intended to do this. Did she really? Yeah. She intended to create a friend who was on the same social standing of her that she could keep as a friend. She wanted to create the person she was missing in her life. Did she I think Emma thought and that's going to bring out so many great qualities. I think what Emma comes to learn is the friend that she wanted was the friend that she had before she made so much influence on her. Yeah. She based Yeah, but luckily, I mean, all things aside, I think the end of the book is so interesting. And something that really hit me this time was the fact that Emma kind of whenever realises she likes Mr. Natalie but also realises that Harriet likes Mr. Knightley because at this point, by this point of the novel, Emily is thinking that Harriet is in love with Frank Churchill because he rescued her. They have this like, unspoken conversation where it's like, Don't worry, how are we I know exactly who you're talking about. And Emma assumes it's Frank Churchill. Harriet, it's sat there thinking it's Mr. Knightley and Emma's like, you go ahead, you go ahead, right, go for that totally backfires. And obviously, when Emma realises it's missing it Emma realises her own feelings for Mr. Knightley and she's like, Oh, my days. Isn't that scene the most awkward thing you've ever seen in your life and isn't Harriet so unrecognisable in that scene as well? Do you know when she's like saying like, but you said Stranger Things that happened? Like why? Why would I not get Mr. Knightley? I feel like all of Emma's work backfires in that one moment, like she see. Like, basically, it's like, the Harriet that she's created is the only Harriet in the room in that moment. And she doesn't like

 

49:53

Yeah, it's so I would just want to duck and hide, especially the movie. But even at the book Like they went into pretty much detail where she was like, girl did you say I was all that and a bag of chips? Like why would I have missed a night? Explain? I thought I thought I was that girl. I thought I was a bad be. Are you saying I'm not like that's such a it's horrible? Horrendous they could have never been more bad timing for her to realise her feelings at that moment like listen you've known Mr. John Nike for so long for so long. Now of all times, you're you're you how tragic.

 

Izzy Meakin  50:35

I know why couldn't she have figured it out when like in the moments where people were saying oh maybe Mr. Like nightly it actually Mary Jane Fairfax and like, raise her from poverty and all this. Why could it ever not see it in that moment? Why did it take this is interesting. Why did it take Harriet? Scene? It may be because at this point, Emma actually believes Harriet is her equal at this point. Do you know I mean, like there's a moment where Emma compares Harriet to Mrs. Elton and she's like, Harriet like Mrs. Elton appear playing against Harriet or she's not she's no superior to Harriet. Like Emma has this reflection where she actually starts talking about Harriet. Is if Harriet is her equal in a sense, in maybe Emma starts to believe it herself. And maybe she because she actually says like, oh my gosh, what was it? Mr. Knightley would marry Harriet. Do you know Amy? Like she does like panic about it? She's like, well this if you will actually marry Harriet Oh my goodness. Like she sees that is like a true possibility. Yeah,

 

51:32

that's such a point like she would have I'm sure she would have gotten into the mentality of all well day and we're gonna have to go to the sun it to see who she who he likes more if he hadn't done the whole speech where he was like, Oh my gosh, if I had loved you less, I would have been able to talk about it was a little bit unrelated. Like I've been in the gym or security for like, a year and a half now two years, and I've seen so many spoilers but like, it never really clicked. And now I can finally say Yes, I know. I know which character said that. I know from which book and I know the context. It's so fun. It's so fun to finally like, get the jokes here and there with a bit more understanding. Anyway, um, yeah, it would have been a strange love triangle situation if Mr. John Knightley wasn't adamant on on, on his feelings towards Emma and a little bit on sidenote his proposal was like a five out of 10 will be I didn't find that that great. Honestly, like I've heard, I guess that's how he even said it like, oh, you know how I am. And you know that I'm not great with speech. But I was just like, Come on, man. When we have the darkness of the world, you just gotta say, Oh, if I had loved Julius I would have been able to talk about it more than write a letter my brother really added understand why. Why you have a golden moment. Yeah.

 

Izzy Meakin  52:51

Take a book out of when was paid. Write the letter, like write it down. Write it down. If you've not got the words like write it down. Exactly. That's actually so funny. I just think oh my god. I mean, oh, I can't even imagine Mr. Knightley and Harriet together. But again, like, I feel like Harriet it picks up on so many of the cues that Emma's trained her to pick up on like Jimmy when Mr. Knightley takes her aside and they're like walking in. He's like telling her about agriculture. I mean, that for me is not what's like, that's not very much to me. But whatever. Whatever floats your boat, Harriet. And she thinks, oh, he took me aside and took all this time to talk to me about agriculture. And I was like, Oh, mommy, is he not like, you know, pushing Mr. Martin maybe and Harriet. It's like, no, no, he wanted to really take this time to to talk to me. Harriet, it goes onto this thing. She's like Mr. Knightley came to ask me to dance. And that was the moment I was like, talking about before that I was like rescued in that's all amazing and grace. But she says to Emma, I would never have thought it possible. If you had never put these ideas in my head in the first place. In I just think that's such a good lesson for Emma, that she has put these ideas into place. That's why Harriet picks up on all these cues. Now she's like, he pulled me aside to chat to me. He asked me to dance it the ball has, like again, amorous trained target to see these things and to see them as declarations of love. Which, but never, they never are like,

 

54:27

it's she's been true. She's really betrayed. And you know what, I don't even think Emma thinks that way. If a guy brought like a glass of water to her and said, Hey, you look a bit posh. She herself wouldn't take this man. He loves me. But she that's what she taught. Harriet, so that's a bit weird. Like she told her things that she doesn't really believe herself to some extent.

 

Izzy Meakin  54:53

Although Do you think Emma really jumps on quickly that she thinks that Frank Churchill has feelings for her she's? I feel like he might lift me then she's like, could I marry him? And she like puts it through and she's like, now you want to marry him or marry anyone in but you know, I mean like she thinks like it's in love with me like I think he might be like he, you know and I feel like that's a little bit more understandable because her friend get on really well and they're flirting a lot. And I mean, the whole Frank Churchill situations like I know that conversation entirely I just think Emma's just like so naive and probably like the worst teacher that Harriet could have possibly gotten.

 

55:28

True if I can find this quote about when, when Mr. Knightley was going on about how he didn't like the fact that the AHA there is Mr. nightie was going on about the fact that like when the friendship started blooming, he was talking to Mrs. Western Yeah, Mrs. Western about how like he thinks it's a bad idea. And he said Hadfield will only put her out of conceit with all the other places she belongs to. She will grow grow just refined enough to be uncomfortable with those among whom birth and circumstances circumstances have placed her home. Like you can see that that that was a prophecy that was a prophecy that came true, because Harriet you should add that to his list of like, think occupation, just like I can tell you a fortune is like a prophesy for you. Because that really did end up happening her or her men that she I wouldn't say I think she got a good deal of self confidence that was genuinely needed because she had no spine at all in the beginning. However it also teeter totter of the line of like, conceit a bit of it, she thought a little tiny, tiny, tiny little sparkle, little, little pinch too much of herself.

 

Izzy Meakin  56:41

This is actually a line that really proves that like at the end, she's like, Mr. Martin. No, indeed. There was not a hint of Mr. Martin. I hope I know better now. Linda, care for Mr. Martin, or to be suspected of it. Like, isn't that like, whoa, hurry. It's not like a personality flip. This is like, next level, like, I feel like MSP like though caught up with like the Frank Churchill situation. And then Harriet, it turns off, and she's like, Perry, I do not recognise you what is going on here. And she's like, Mr. Martin. Gosh, I want to hear from Mr. Martin. Like, I want to hear from Mr. Elliott now, like, I'm probably never gonna marry because I have set my standards so high now that I feel like Harriet still has like a little bit of thing cuz she's like, I'm probably never going to marry because Why would Mr. Knightley go for me, but she still has that small bit of doubt. But then she's also like, Emma, if you're on board with it, like, I have reason to hope that this could work out for me. Oh my gosh, like, ever you have created this situation.

 

57:42

Yeah, and again, back to the kindness of the Martins and everyone that she was friends with before, I'm glad that they didn't like throw her off completely. Because when people do a complete 180 like that, and change their personality and be like, I'm too good for everyone in this place. And I'm going to marry a while and started thinking like, having an very inflated sense of self. It would have been easy for the waters to be like, Oh, okay, cool. Stay with your rich friends. And we'll be fine. You know, but they, they, they they were kind enough to take it back. And do you think by the end of the novel? Yes. She married Robert Barton. And she had friends. But do you think she completely like squashed all that self importance? Or do you think that maybe it's still a little bit there because she was

 

Izzy Meakin  58:25

still I think what she gains is the ability to know her own mind and action on it, which I think is so important. It's what she doesn't have at the start. And I think that's really good that it comes full circle in the sense that obviously, I mean, Emma just basically sends off to London because she's like, gosh, I can't bear to be around you. I've messed up so much now and you obviously fancy my fiance so she's like, I'll just send you to London to stay with my sister. So Harriet goes off to London, which is when she's like reacquainted with Robert Martin because I think Mr. Knightley like gets him to send thank God for Mr. Knightley. Like, he resolves everything. But anyway, Mr. Martin turns up and then re proposes to hurry up. In what hurry one is obviously knows now that Emma's gonna marry Mr. Knightley, she's confronted with all of Emma's humongous mistakes that she's made throughout the whole thing in her life. And I think in this moment, Harriet, I don't think she marries Mr. Martin because she's like, Oh, my God. Gosh, I need to marry Mr. Martin because I'm going to be lonely forever. Because Emma's, you know, messed up my whole life. I think she goes, she goes, actually, I'm alone. I'm not around anymore. What do I want? And she's able to meet those students. She does not like she doesn't even get in touch with them at all. Before she accepts Robert. Emma hears about her accepting Robert Martin's proposal from Mr. Knightley. Harriet makes this decision solely on her own. She actions it on her own. She doesn't contact me to ask her advice. Harriet is able to trust her own judgement in this moment. And I think that's Harriet's growth. And I think that's under estimated by a lot of readers, but I actually think it's so important like I think How are you it goes on a real journey. And in the end she's yes left with herself but that's enough for her.

 

1:00:10

Yeah, that's a good point. Like she did gain a lot to learn from from that friendship and it's cool that they carried on being friends. However, the thing that really threw me for a loop is that the book in the movie and differently so you see how in the book, it it. It was character development because Harriet made that that decision all on her own in the and Emma didn't know until it was confirmed. But in the movie. Emma is the one who goes to Mr. Martin and because Mr. Knightley offers to go to Mr. Watson and say, Hey, go read propose. And then she's like, No, I need to do it myself too. Because I've messed up so badly. Right, which is Character Development at Emma's part because at least she has a shame you know, to understand for her she's messed up greatly. But also she's involved in Mr. Martin going to re propose, which so if if one reads just the book and not the movie, or just watches the movie and not the books, I think they'd have different opinions on the ending and the month I think,

 

Izzy Meakin  1:01:13

I agree. I mean, I'm really not a massive fan of the the 2020 movie version. I really don't like the way that they portray Emma like, I can't I think she comes across really mean really angry. And I think a lot of the other characters come across really angry as well. But I think that they do Harriet a disservice that Emma's the ones who kind of resolve the situation because I think Harriet is right, that's hurry. It's like triumph in the end that she chooses her own life. And she's happy with it. And she doesn't need me as input.

 

1:01:52

I agree, especially even after she learns of her, her what her who her dad is and what her dad does, like that boosts your confidence. She's like, Yeah, I'm that be and I do have parents who are really cool. Like, it's a confidence booster. So a wish that they in the movie, I wish that they had led Harriet to figure it out for herself like she did in the books because that really would have showed that she she's on her Queen energy. Now, you know, she she doesn't need Emma to meddle in stuff anymore. Which I mean, in the movie, hope middling helped because Mr. Robot came and stuff but it's still I still think the book ending was better. Yeah,

 

Izzy Meakin  1:02:34

I think it needed to be inherits own right and just have nothing to do with Emma. In the end. I think that's good for Emma as well, because Emma needs to realise that actually. She needs to just keep a nose out a lot of the time and just not get involved in, like, everything that's going on there. You made such a great point, though. Is it not telling how much Austen wanted Harriet to have a journey that by the end of the book, she goes from being the daughter of somebody to the daughter of us particular trades person in all of her family's lives, it all comes clear is that no proof that Harriet has such a journey that in by the end of it Harriet's like a full person, like a whole person in her own right and

 

1:03:13

completely enqueue you a little bit. It's cool to see that that character development because like I said, I relate to her a little bit in terms of the in decisiveness. But it's cool to see that like, you know, maybe one day I'll be on my queen energy just like I'll grow to the avert war. I do have a backbone, I think in terms of decision making, she grew to be able to make those types of decisions on her own.

 

Izzy Meakin  1:03:45

Yeah, yeah. I to be honest with you, like I could do I could even see an argument to say that Harriet has the most like character development, even though some people could think oh, she literally is just ends exactly where she started. Like is if you took like the whole situation of her meeting Emma out, would she have had the same scenario? Would she just have accepted Robert Martin? Maybe. But I think she's so much better for accepting it after she's been through all of that. Do you know what I mean? Like I feel like it's, she's such a better person for it in the end, because she's like, Well, I've been through like a lot and I can now make this decision. Because I know it's what I want as opposed to her just being like, oh, Robert Martin. He's proposed to me how nice of him like I should really

 

1:04:27

accept the wall that's it's the bed who got me all that.

 

Izzy Meakin  1:04:33

Yeah, the wellness. Yeah. Been there like I've never gotten to that much detail about hurry Smith before. Is there anything else you want to add about hurry or anything?

 

1:04:42

I didn't really think that ever helped her to some extent, to to get back forward. Even though Emma was the cause of her needing to use her backbone. At least he has a backbone in the first place.

 

Izzy Meakin  1:04:56

Would you like to everybody know where they can find you?

 

1:04:59

You You can find me on Instagram colourful underscore lychee, colourful spelt with a u. And then li chi spelled li te ch AI. And then you can find me on YouTube as well just put Telaga PONTL e space, l a n g a, I'm getting really on top of my YouTube game. So if you subscribe, you're there. There'll be wonderful content coming your way. Pretty soon. And our podcast I have a podcast with my sisters with my two older sisters, called the 1am Club podcast, we post two episodes a month and it's a very I think I listen back to our podcast episodes and laugh. So I'd like to think that other people find us funny as well. So definitely go give us a listen over there

 

Izzy Meakin  1:05:46

following me on Instagram. So that's what the Austen so I share a lot of the behind the scenes stuff with the podcast as well and a lot of clips and that kind of thing and obviously loads of Jane Austen content. So if the podcast is just not enough for you, then you should come over and follow me there. And but really appreciate you coming on today. I've had so much fun with you. Thank you have

 

1:06:07

been such a fan of your podcast ever since we came out. And I enjoy like listening to everyone else's episodes. It's always so interesting. I kid you not I was literally fangirling as you did the intro because I'm so used to hearing the intro of the podcast like while I'm baking while I'm washing dishes. I was just like, oh my gosh, this is a little bit surreal. I want my favourite podcast. Whoo. But yeah. I love that. Thank you so much for inviting me on.

 

Izzy Meakin  1:06:42

Yeah, I appreciate it. Oh, of course. Thanks. And we will see you in the next episode.

(Cont.) Episode 19: Jane Austen's Harriet Smith and why she is all that and a bag of chips with Bontle @colourful_litchi