Episode 24: Disney Villains x Northanger Abbey Villains

Welcome to the twenty fourth episode of the What the Austen? podcast! I'm your host Izzy, and I am joined by my friend and fellow Janeite Ann from @disneyprincesslessons and @paper.hearts.library. We are back and today we are covering the villains in  Jane Austen's  Northanger Abbey and comparing them against Disney Villains. This is the last episode in the Disney Villain series! It's been so much fun to cover all of the villains and I recommend listening in to all the other episodes for your Austen x Disney fix.

Don't miss out on our other episodes:

Pride and Prejudice villains (Ep 15) 
Sense and Sensibility  (Ep 18) 
Disney Princesses x Jane Austen Heroine (Ep 8)

This podcast is about Janeites coming together, discussing Jane Austen's work, and having a few laughs along the way.

We really enjoyed making this episode and we hope you like it. 

Further Reading:
Disney Wiki Villains | Fandom
Jane Austen Runs my life Blog: Waiter there's some Disney to my Jane Austen
The Disney Book of Maps

Where can you find Ann?
@paper.hearts.library
@disneyprincesslessons
PrincessLessons YouTube Channel

Transcript

Izzy Meakin  00:18

Hi Janeites Welcome to episode 24 If the What the Austen podcast? this is actually the final instalment of the Disney villain times Austen villain journey, it's been a wild ride guys and I've loved every minute of it and is back obviously and in this episode we are going to be covering Northanger Abbey so the last novel on our list, and the first villain I have on the list is Janel Tilly, I probably shouldn't say a little bit about him because I know Northanger Abbey isn't the most read of the novel. So journal Tilly is Henry's father also Eleanor and Frederick's father. He's he's pretty wealthy, he's like ex military. It's a pretty like dark, like brooding kind of guy. And he said to be like always looking at the floor, just walking around and peace in and thinking to himself, it's common knowledge that he didn't have a very happy marriage to Henry's mother. And Catherine kind of takes that thing a little bit too far. And she she kind of thinks he's a real serious villain. But I think it's just to the extent that he's just not really a very nice guy, and he just wants to be alone and do his own thing. And he's very concerned with status. If he hears that any of his children are looking to marry someone he literally shows up. That's actually one of the reasons he shows up in London in the first place as he has that. Henry's interested in Catherine and so he shows up to be like, Who is this Catherine? Girl? What's going on here? So yeah, that's just a little bit about him in case you've forgotten who he is. Do you want to go faster? You want me to go faster? This one? Yeah, go ahead, go first. Okay, no worries. I have three on my list for general Tilney. And the first one that I had was the queen of hearts. So I put the queen of hearts on, because she's very ruthless, hot headed, just wants to execute people for the small things is unpredictable. And I think considering a Disney princess episode, we matched Catherine and Alice for a lot of the reasons I think that general Tilney really fits into the same kind of villain against the heroine kind of dynamic. Yeah, basically, general Tilney is the reason that Catherine's kind of thrown out in the middle of the night because he finds out that she isn't wealthy after he was told that she was. And I feel like that's so similar to the Queen just suddenly being like Off with her head and just flipping out about the fact that Alice wins when they're playing them croquet. Yeah, I thought they were quite similar with that like that. Craziness. Yeah, I can see that for sure. I like that, especially with the fact that I do see so much and Catherine and L is so curious and everything that's kind of perfect. It's like she kind of stumbles into this trap without even realising it.

Izzy Meakin  02:53

Yes, and that's so similar to Alice. Alice has no idea. Well, she has no idea what's going on. It wouldn't stop and I feel like that's so similar to Catherine She's totally out of her element it Northanger Abbey. Catherine never set out to deceive anybody. It's all to do with the thoughts the reason that they have these perceptions about Katherine being wealthy. Yeah. And I feel like she's so just like, well, what's going on here like and he just yeah, he he's just like a bit ruthless and a bit hot headed and just basically jumps to conclusions and blames Catherine for everything that's very similar to what the Queen does, I think, Oh, I like that. Very good. And then the next one on the list that I have is Professor Ratigan from Great Mouse Detective is what it's called the film. Oh, yeah. Don't wash them forever. So never die, but I did actually watch it recently. So it's a little this is a little bit of a stretch acute hang with me for this one. So the reason that I match these two is Northanger Abbey obviously has all these these gothic tropes, obviously Gothic gothic novel, and Professor Ratigan is actually voiced by Vincent Price. And if you don't know who Vincent Price is, he's actually like, basically like the godfather of like Gothic Phil. Yeah. He was in like Luther classics. And if you've not watched like goth classic horrors, I haven't watched much of that myself. But you may have seen him in Edward Scissorhands. He's basically like a cameo of himself. He plays Edwards, the the inventor, so Edward start, who like creates him in the first place. And yeah, he's basically like, super well known for being in Gothic film. And so I thought in a similar way that Northanger Abbey really represents, you know, Gothic, the Gothic genre, even if it's in more of a satirical sense, I thought that they both had this larger than life villain who really falls into the Gothic trope. And I think Professor Ratigan having Vincent prices, the voiceover and how he's like, he's like in like a Dracula cave. And I think it's kind of that extreme, you know, Gothic elements and gothic villain that Catherine imagines general Tilney to be Yeah, they're just like quite similar in that sense. I love that. I love that

Ann  05:00

so much. And you know, I didn't even know that Vincent Price was the voice of that character at all. But I love I love Vincent Price. And he actually inspired Tim Burton and a lot of his filmmaking and so that just all that fits together so well that's so good. Yeah, absolutely. I didn't know either. The actually the only reason that I figured out is I actually watched Edward Scissorhands and two days later, I watched the Great Mouse Detective and because I heard their voice in in Edward Scissorhands. I was like, Oh my gosh, I love it. There's a price like what? Oh,

Izzy Meakin  05:30

yeah, and then I realised I was like, this is obviously perfect from like, Disney villain. episode, I'm gonna make a stretch of a connection here. Yeah, so and also the way that Professor Raskin like, reacts to things is really dramatic. He literally calls on a cat every time something goes wrong, so that they can eat his basically like the people that work for him. It's like the the fret that's hanging over. And that's very similar to the threat that appears to hangover Catherine eventually is that he's going to throw her out in the night, and she's got to basically get what is at the time public transport home, which is quite dangerous in the middle of the night. So yeah, so I thought they were they were quite similar. Or I did have another link for Preston Roscoe. Yes. Well, in that is, Katherine's always searching for clues to try and prove that he's a villain. And that's really similar to basil searching for clues, because obviously you like a version of Sherlock Holmes. So I was like, that was really similar to that. So good.

Ann  06:27

That is like one of my favourite ones that you've done so far. I love the ones that it first it just doesn't seem like it's going to make sense. And then when you make all those connections, like your mind was blown, because it's like, it makes so much sense. It's perfect. That one's a good one.

Izzy Meakin  06:42

Yeah, so that was that was like my biggest one for him. I just have one more in it's just like a quick comment. And that was Jafar. And that's literally just that, that kind of the scheme to marry somebody who's this younger woman who's wealthy and is going to basically like, give him more power or something, because General Tilney actually starts to be interesting. Catherine himself when he believes that she's super wealthy, and that's like, really creepy. And a bit like Jafar being really creepy with jasmine, I

Ann  07:11

guess I like that.

Izzy Meakin  07:15

Yeah, that was everybody on my list for general Tilney. So I'll pass it over to you.

Ann  07:20

Okay, well, I will actually start with Jafar because he's on my list also. So we can, I can play off of what you said, basically had a lot of the same reasons evil plot for money, tries to get his son to seduce Catherine because he thinks that she's eras, which is similar to Jafar trying to manipulate the Sultan into letting him marry Jasmine. But I also was thinking about how Catherine is kind of a diamond in the rough in the same way that Aladdin is like, you know, I don't know that she really thinks I don't think that she really thinks that she needs to be a fancy lady or anything like that. And the way that Aladdin feels like he needs to be a prince. But I still think that she is this like, true diamond of a person that has it, she's rough around the edges because of being naive and not really, you know, having a lot of experiences in the world. And so I think that you could kind of equate that a little bit. And I think that Jafar tries to use Aladdin in a similar Well, not exactly a similar way, but in a way that general telling tries to use Catherine it's they're completely different ways. I'm not making sense, but they're in completely different ways. But they're both trying to use somebody through diamonds in the rough.

Izzy Meakin  08:36

Yeah, it's like that power dynamic likes from being able to manipulate somebody who's maybe on the poorest side or is like you said, Like a diamond in the rough view it their core is a good person, but on the outside obviously is like a little bit rough around the edges like she said, and I feel like that's like a part in like North anchor of the UN General Tilney is like showing Catherine around and she's like commenting, like oh, this is like super fancy, but she has no like she can't really like understand exactly what she's looking at because she's not got the taste, or she's not seen enough of like really fancy stuff to actually realise what she's looking at. So like she's not got a sophisticated like palette for it. Yeah. In general, Tony's like that, like, strange. Maybe she's just being polite and like complimented things like why is she never seen this before? And I feel like that's based in literature for like watching a legend when he's trying to be the Prince and be like, why would he not know this stuff? Or why would he not? You know, I mean, that same looking at them like this has got to be like a ruse. Maybe.

Ann  09:35

I like it. I think that's a good one. I also had Frollo because I think that there's a little bit of a sinister Gothic thing. Even even though it's not really a gothic story. The Hunchback of Notre Dom, I mean, notre DOM Cathedral has that Gothic vibe. It's kind of has that connection and I think they're both kind of seriously a little scary. And I really think General Tony is the most scary villain of like, All of us as villains and I think I just love the way awesome does this. I mean, she shows that a real person who hasn't murdered his wife in that Gothic novel sort of way, but maybe slowly killed his wife through the stress that he put on her and the way that he treated her. I just think that she shows that, you know, sometimes the people that we might know next door might be the scarier, more scary than like a gothic villain character. And I think that's sort of the Hunchback of Notre Dom, like maybe, maybe the local priests is actually the scary person, the scarier person than a hunchback. So I think that those two go together. And then my last one is Clayton from Tarzan because he's very charming and manipulative, and comes across as very suave and chivalrous at first, but he's hiding his true nature. And he lies to the naive Tarzan, which is exactly what Gen Tony does to the naive Catherine. And he lies to to the naive charts and to get the gorillas like Tony is to Katherine to get her money. Well, what he thinks is her money. So those are my three or four. I don't know how many I had.

Izzy Meakin  11:07

No, they're good. They're good. I like them. Yeah, absolutely. And then also I love that we have like different ones I feel as really good apart from like, drop off so we found the link there but I feel like it's cool that we had like different different ones for him because they feel like because he said like a classic villain in a sense like he does fit into so many so it's good to find the links with like multiple different characters, I think

Ann  11:29

yeah, you're you're Great Mouse Detective one that was awesome. I really need to now I really want to rewatch especially like this fall. I'm gonna have to watch that leading up to Halloween. That sounds like the perfect Disney movie to watch. Rewatch for the first time since childhood. Honestly, I have not watched it since I was a kid.

Izzy Meakin  11:44

That was the same as me. I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like such an underrated film. And then when I found all the links and some prices and voiceover I was like, how do people not that How is this not like a massive Disney movie?

Ann  11:54

No, it's just when you kind of forget about I always forget about that one.

Izzy Meakin  11:58

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It was only like three doing this. I actually went back and watched it. So guys. Yeah, I'm putting it out though. It's everybody. Go watch it. Okay, great. So moving on on the list. The next Austen villain that I have is John Thorpe. So I really hate this guy. He's likely to basically John Thorpe is he's the brother of Isabella. And he's just a slimy guy. I really, really do not like him. But he's also the person that causes the most problems. So he's basically like the town gossip in London, and he's the one that originally tells Daniel Tilney that Katherine's wealthy when she's not, and then he's also the person subsequently who goes back and says she's not wealthy, which then causes her to be kicked out of Northanger Abbey so he causes a lot of problems. He also proposes to Catherine or at least says that he's interested enough to propose to her or something along these lines and and then tries to get assisted convince Catherine to marry him. The thoughts in general are just weird people. Jump up creeped me out fully. Like I genuinely can't stand it.

Ann  13:06

What I hate though about him is that he reminds me the most of like, I feel like you can equate him to certain modern guys because of like his showing off his his carriage. I think we might have mentioned this another time but it held like so equates to cars. And I just feel like the classic narcissistic. I'm so great guy. He just he's he's him to a tee. And yeah, that guy hasn't changed for 200 years.

Izzy Meakin  13:31

Right? Isn't it the people that you cannot usually like relate to people you could be in real life to stare at you the most and you're like, oh my gosh, there were John Phillips out there and I'm scared of them. Oh my gosh, so funny. Okay, I am going to, but you go first for this one.

Ann  13:47

Okay, so I had a really hard time putting him down besides going with guests on and I feel like I have I have picked up guests on a lot. And but I feel like it fits. I feel like it fits really well. And I feel like it's really obvious the fact that he's narcissistic, the fact that he's trying to show off the fact that he's trying to get her away from the person that she really likes or cares about, just like with guests on the beach. But I had a kind of interesting one that he reminds me a little bit of Honest John and Gideon from Pinocchio, because they're the they're the fox and oh gosh, I can't it's like a cat. I think it's like a fox and a cat because it's a cat. Yeah, because Pinocchio is naive and they're like, come with me. This will be so much fun and everything will be great and come to this carnival of life. And that's exactly how he is he's like, trying to get her into these k likes chaotic situations are kind of kidnapper under the guise of like this will be so much fun. And it's actually never turns out to be fun and always turns out to be to go really poorly for Katherine's. So I thought that that was kind of a unique side of his personality aside from just the stereotypical obnoxious narcissistic guy because that is really how he He does it in a very unique way by always trying to lure her by this will be fine here's some candy she doesn't fall for it after a while which is what I love but um but yeah, I could see that connection like with with them and Pinocchio

Izzy Meakin  15:15

Well, I'm about to tell you I also got that same guys actually did so I have like an added section underneath Isabella and John which says them together and I thought Honest John and Gideon together is so like Isabella and John because I think they see at one point they're like, we're going to be playing golf cards right? And it's so they can make money. And obviously they keep like taking poker to all these different scenarios. I mean, oh my gosh, if you not watch poker, Pinocchio recently is disturbing. Like I found it super stiff when I was on the Pinocchio ride at Disneyland Paris because I was like, this is such a dark scary story like Oh, honestly, it really is. But yeah, they basically go and find the target like you were saying and and put so much energy in it energy into pursuing it because they know it's going to make them money. And yeah, I absolutely saw it and the fact that that both called John, as well put that out there. I know,

Ann  16:11

Shawn, because he tries to pretend to be honest, but he's not.

Izzy Meakin  16:18

I know. I know. And I thought that the same way as well that Jiminy Cricket is very much like Henry like that voice of reason that conscious is trying to say to Catherine these are nice people. Just like Jiminy Cricket obviously follies, Pinocchio, Ronnie's like, these aren't nice people. You need to avoid them. So yeah, I love that link so much. I didn't make that connection with Jiminy Cricket and Henry, but I love it. That's great. Okay, I'll let you tell me. Do you have another one? Yeah. No, I

Ann  16:46

don't. So that's the that's my main one for John Doerr. Yeah,

Izzy Meakin  16:50

I love that one. Honestly, I love it so much. Like I'm so

Ann  16:54

came up with it. Because it's really obscure to

Izzy Meakin  16:58

literally I was gonna say like, it's super rare that we match on the like, the really rare ones that we pick, like we usually pick up like a couple of these ourselves. But it's so rare that we like we both find the same one. So I love that. That's so funny. I love it. So I have I think I have two for John Philip. And it's really funny actually the US guest on and because I took a slightly different approach. I went with Lisu just because I think John Forbes a little bit more like Bumbly daft and like unintelligent. And I think that Gaston again is like unintelligent, but I just think there's something like about the food that I feel like John Thorpe gives me more sidekick vibes.

Ann  17:37

He does I yeah, I don't

Izzy Meakin  17:39

know why even though he obviously thinks a lot about himself. But I also think lifou also is a bit of a like a kiss bomb. Yeah, kiss bomb is a bit of a issue. I mean, he like kisses up to people. And like the foo kisses up to gas on I feel like John sort of goes around like kissing lips. People time like when he meets general tell me or when he bumps into Henry or originally when he meets Catherine like it's genuinely super creepy. But he does that all the time. And he's a bit slimy a bit like lifou I mean, I actually love the new version of Luffy like when he's in the like the person adaptation but yeah, I just think there's elements of love through that really show and Chantal,

Ann  18:16

I liked that so much better. Let's get the guests on because I feel like guests on is the easy one for a lot of these arrogant Jane Austen villains who are trying to get a girl, but I liked that so much better because he really didn't feel like he does not have main villain vibes if that's the thing, the main character vibes just a main villain vibes. He has like kick villain vibes.

Izzy Meakin  18:40

Yeah, I feel like he's like a weird combination of like Gaston and LeFou. I mean, that sounds terrifying. But I feel like that is. That's why you say weird. Like, it's so creepy and weird.

Ann  18:48

Really socially awkward in that way to that lifou is so I like it. It's great.

Izzy Meakin  18:54

Yeah, literally. And then the next one that I had on here is a little bit more of an obscure one as well. So my next one is Sir Hess. Sue had services in Robin Hood. Yeah. And he's basically the sidekick of Prince John. So he's like this snake who helps Prince John like collect taxes from the poor. He's also money obsessed, like Prince John is, but he's like the voice in his head. So what's really funny is throughout Robin Hood, he's always in Prince John's ear hissing in Prince John's like Go away. Stop hissing in my ear. Here's what you do. And like you can you drive me up the wall? Yes. And that's so similar to John thought, because he's always whispering into people's ears, and eavesdropping on people and Hester's that he like puts his head in a balloon so that he can eavesdrop on some of the other characters. And that's like John saw he does that all the time and not put his head in a balloon. But he's like, eavesdropping on people. And there's actually a scene that his goes basically like goes to Prince John and says the stocks Robin Hood because Robin Hood is like in a disguise. In Prince John already knows by this point, so he's just like He's furious. He's like, I already know now. Oh my gosh, why didn't you tell me this before? And I think that's so similar to you when John Thorpe. I mean, we're doing things we actually see this in the book. But when John salt goes back to Captain Tilney and says, Oh, what I told you before about Katelyn being really wealthy, actually, she's not she's not wealthy at all. And that infuriates general Tilney. And I just think, yeah, he's like this voice and everybody's just like hissing and getting on everyone's nerves and spreading lies.

Ann  20:28

I love that. I love the hissing in the ear. That is such a good one. I did not think of that one either.

Izzy Meakin  20:36

Yeah, I thought that was like I did again, like it was just because I was like, looking through some of them and he's one that I totally forgot about, but it was like, You know what, he kind of fits for John Thorpe, John Phelps. Such a hard one to match because I feel like there's no Disney character who's kind of going around like spreading lies and rumours like it's a very chick flicky more modern kind of character, isn't it? Yeah,

Ann  20:59

I feel like he is one of the most modern seeming characters in Austen I don't know what it is something about him just strikes me as so realistic aside from you know, just the main heroines and such just as far as the side character goes I feel like he just feels almost modern to me. And he's very vivid and very memorable and he just makes you so mad. He makes me so mad.

Izzy Meakin  21:24

Literally you just like repulsed by it was so funny. He's he doesn't do anything quite as bad as some of the other villains but he's still the most gross for some reason.

Ann  21:32

I just was so sneaky about it. It is is so much like honest, John and Gideon. I just think that is the perfect one because he's so sneaky about like, this will be so much fun. This will be so great. And I don't get any he just has a total disregard like he acts like he loves Katherine. I mean, I think he loves what he thinks her money is. But he actually he really cares about Katherine. It's like he doesn't know her at all. Like it's like he doesn't even have a clue. He's so unbelievably clueless about what a girl or a girl like Katherine would be interested in talking about. He just goes on on about his his moderator's regency era equivalent of like a fancy sports car and she's not interested at all.

Izzy Meakin  22:13

See chilli Oh, so grim honestly. So funny. Yeah, I Okay, that was everybody that I have for John Thorpe's. The next one on the list is his sister Isabella Thorpe again, I really struggled with this. I got a lot for her. But I was like, again, she's such like a modern character. And will chick flick. Yeah, as well. But it's quite hard to match it to someone in Disney. I agree. And I'll let you go first. If you can. You can let me know if you've got a few if you want. You want me to go first? I don't mind. Oh, no,

Ann  22:43

that's fine. I had just a couple for her because I did have trouble matching her. I feel like this is just making me think we probably should have gone out to like some of the Disney Channel original movies. We'll have to do that another time. With like, characters at Disney Channel original movies. Because like when you said the chick flick II thing that makes me think of some of the like, fake bestfriend girls who end up being like we know the whole time that they're fake, like in some of those Disney Channel type movies. But anyway, for the actual cartoons, I thought a bellwether from Zootopia because she seems so sticky, sweet, and she's really the villain. And then Ursula, which is a little bit of a twist, but I feel like even though Ursula is more overtly a villain and evil, it is something that we kind of see that she has no desire to help Ariel and Ariel is kind of dumb, where it's like she feels a little bit like weird about her even though Catherine doesn't feel weird about is Isabella Isabella Thorpe. I do feel as if there's a little bit of a similarity in that she's kind of pulled into thinking this person wants to help her when really she has her own ulterior motives. And then, even though this is definitely a stretch, I feel like you could say that Isabella's interest in in Catherine's brother maybe a little bit like when Ursula turns into Vanessa trying to play this person who's like the beautiful nice seductress type of person to get someone who normally wouldn't be interested if they knew what she really was. So I feel like that was a real stretch. So I'm interested to hear what you have because I really struggle with that one.

Izzy Meakin  24:18

Yeah, I feel like I was stretching a lot for Isabella as well, not because she she's not filling us but because I just couldn't fit a seam fill and Calico characteristics I agree. But I did have a slur on my list as well. And that was just I feel like she befriends the heroine only to stab her in the back in the future in plays on the heroines naivety because they Ariel's quite naive when she goes to us or and she thinks she can trust her and then it turns out she She really can't. But I love what you said about when Ursula turns into like the seductress. That's really cool. I like that that's really good because that's very much what Isabella is all about is literally like she's on like a manhunt for a rich guy and she she really doesn't care about anybody's feelings. She sticky sweet as well like Bella v. So Right. Oh my gosh, both of those both. They're both really good. One of the other ones that I had on my list was Mother ghafar. Oh, just

Ann  25:10

that good. Yeah. You know,

Izzy Meakin  25:12

like the manipulative gaslighting. So she kind of falls onto the radar of love and like with Catherine, she's like, we're such good friends like I've never hurt you. We could do this together. And they're like really close. But at the end of the day, like she's actually not a nice person. And she's got this ulterior motive that the heroine knows nothing about. Yeah. And it comes out obviously later on a bit like when Rapunzel figures out that her mother is not actually her mother and that she's trying to use her for a magic glowing hair. So I feel like that's so similar to like Katherine, when she gets that letter from her brother saying like, basically, Isabel has been flirting with Fredrik for four weeks, and we're all engaged with Sophia and then Isabella sends with a letter like, please help me get back with your brother because Frederick gone now and I'm just like, no.

Ann  25:59

Oh, that's so good. I think Mother girl, so I didn't even think about that one. But I think that's my favourite one so far,

Izzy Meakin  26:05

literally. And then another one that I put on was Madame Medusa, which is actually a link I made with Lucy Steele in the last episode. Yeah, and I think I just think that Lucy Steele and Isabella have so many similarities that I just thought, you know, that greediness and they'll go to great lengths under a full pretence again under love, because Madame Medusa pretends that she loves Cronenberg little girl's name is but she's like, Oh, come on, I'll take you home and you can have your teddy but then she's also like super mean about it, and you need to do this. So she has like that switch that those different personalities that she puts on for different times. That's so similar to Isabel. She's just too faced. And it's gross. And then the last one I had on the list for it was Hans, and that is just like halation. Again, tricking somebody. Obviously, like James Catherine's brother isn't a significant character like honour is, but I feel like it's kind of a it's still that kind of drawing somebody in to get them to love you only then turn around and be like, I shouldn't win you anymore because I found somebody else or I've got another motive or when he's over this way. And yeah, she's very much like that. And I feel like on is very similar to Katherine, I think we probably made that link in the Disney Princess one that they're both quite naive. And yeah, it's just that person that you are the person that you didn't think they were originally because they've got this like false pretence. And I feel like Isabel was very much that kind of character.

Ann  27:25

Yeah, she's definitely the front of me, which is, I don't think I've seen this movie, but there is a Disney Channel Original Movie called frenemies, which it just seems like that modern kind of like, I don't know, like that that trope of the frenemy girl who's like, Oh, I'm so nice. But actually we all know when we're watching it. I just don't think anybody biases Isabelle is like really a nice person after you hear a few things that she says.

Izzy Meakin  27:48

I know, I know. She really makes my skin crawl though. So I did have one more on the list. That's actually a John Thorpe. It's about the combination of like the Honest John Gideon one. And that was Tweedledum and Tweedledee. That was because they're super mischievious. They're always trying to stop Alice from getting where she wants to go. So like following the White Rabbit. And this is very much the same as what Isabella and John do. When Catherine wants to go meet the Tonys. They make up these lies and they draw Catherine and to take her off on this like carriage ride. We're gonna take you in a totally different, you know, a wild goose chase here because we don't want you to go and do what you you know what you're actually set to set to do today. So yeah, I just thought they were they were quite similar as well.

Ann  28:28

Yes. I really like that.

Izzy Meakin  28:31

Yeah, actually, like I said, I recently met Tweedledum and Tweedledee at the Disney Park, which was fun. Really fun to meet that you would like the best. I think they were our best ones to interact with. They were really fun. Oh, that's great. I love it. I wouldn't want to be Isabella and John soften it just in part because I wouldn't know either. Through funny, okay. Do you have anything else that you want to add for Isabella and John?

Ann  28:54

No, I do not.

Izzy Meakin  28:56

So we're on the last person then the last one this is that. I wish it was like a bigger character for this. But it's not. It is Captain Frederick Tilney. So this is Henry's brother. The person that Isabella starts flirting with and everything. He was really hard as well. I think just because I didn't, I didn't really know him that well. He's basically just a fighter and a womaniser. He just appears he's just like a bit of a scoundrel, but like has no new cards in the game. I know it's such like a bit of a weird one but yeah, he's definitely a villain though. So I've added them to the list Do you want to go first if your pics

Ann  29:31

Oh, I just I struggled with him and so I'm just even trying to sit here and think if I can think of anything off the top of my head even more about my I feel like this is such a boring pick because I just thought of Hans and I thought of guests on I feel like that they have he kind of has a really good combination of both of their personalities, but I really, really struggled with that one and it is because I don't think we get to know that much about him and I couldn't find a really good a really good care After that equates them so I'm gonna pass it over to you because I would love to hear what you came up with because this one stumped me.

Izzy Meakin  30:07

Yeah, egregious, super, super hard one. So I definitely put gas on and hands on there with that, like the fact that flirtatious trying to draw women in, and they don't really care if they hurt people's feelings. And then I did pick two others. And this is just because I feel like the way that Frederick is is, is dark in the sense that he, what he causes chaos for fun, which I feel like it's like a really weird thing that we don't see with a lot of Austen villains that they're actually like I said, they have no cards on the table. They're not even in the game when they just want to mess with people. And that's very much like what Frederick does. So I picked the coachman from Pinocchio. And because of that, like no morals and no no remorse, just because he is terrified. Like, I don't know if you guys have watched Pinocchio recently, but like I was saying before, it's absolutely terrifying. He's basically got like this like human trafficking thing with little boys where it turns them into donkeys and he like drills all these little boys like Pleasure Island. This might be a bit of a stretch, but I genuinely feel like Isabella for she was going to Pleasure Island when she was with Frederick. And that all backfired so you didn't turn her into a donkey but you definitely made it look like a donkey for sure.

Ann  31:14

So that is a really good one that I did not think of. I like this one. This is my favourite one so far.

Izzy Meakin  31:22

So yeah, I put that one on the list. And for those reasons, and then I did also put on the horned the horned King from The Black Cauldron, which if you've not watched that film, guys, that is such an underrated Disney film. I love it. Me too. The dog, but it's awesome, right? Yes. So yeah, I definitely recommend watching that. But basically, the horned King has, he has a motive basically to like take over everything and like ruin everybody's life. But there's no like nothing behind it. It's not like anyone did him harm or anything. He's literally just he's a bit like Frederick, in the sense. He just turns off and it's like he just wants to ruin everyone's life just for the sake of it. Yeah, so I just thought he was a good one to throw in there because he's the villain who's the villain for know that he has no backstory. He's just to fill in for being a villain.

Ann  32:09

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that's that was the hardest. He was the hardest one to equate to a character because of that, because he's just kind of like, non Disney example is like you could equate him to something like the Joker in The Dark Knight or something like that. He's ledgers. It's just an agent of chaos. And I feel like this he does a good job of giving their villains motivation for the most part, but he just, he just doesn't he's just a jerk. He's just a narcissist.

Izzy Meakin  32:38

Literally, he's just like a bad guy who like rocks up and I think obviously, I suppose again, he's like a capitalist. So we can actually find out that Isabella is in fact, not a very nice person. But yeah, they actually would have been pretty good much it's a shame that he didn't go for it because I feel like him and as Valerie she would have been a good they would have been a terrible marriage, but like personality wise, they would have been well, not

Ann  33:01

they would have had a good time like swindling everybody.

Izzy Meakin  33:05

Yeah, literally. Yeah. Ruining everybody's lives together. Yeah. 100%. Exactly. Oh, my gosh. So funny. All those everyone knew that. But that was so much fun. I feel like yeah, we've we've gone through so many characters like you think about and so many. Yeah,

Ann  33:18

I know. It's a lot. It's amazing. You didn't I didn't realise how many villains there were until we started putting together notes for this and Austen, because you just think of Austen is light, bright and sparkling. And, you know, you think of Mr. Wickham immediately or will be, but there's a lot more, a lot more villainous behaviour going on?

Izzy Meakin  33:40

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think so as well. And I feel like there's this kind of like those more detailed things that they do that you're like, actually, I can find matches with other villains who do that. And it just builds up that that character, doesn't it? And I just think yeah, it's not always the surface level stuff. Like, oh, he broke someone's heart. It's yeah, it's the little things. It's like, What if his motives Is it money? Is it greed? Is it just to ruin people's lives like Frederick? 

Ann  34:06

Yeah. And you know, I always under the surface, like pulling, pulling little strings and making things happen in ways that really affect people's lives. I mean, again, that's what's such a such a wonderful thing about Austen's genius is that she just finds such a way to take characters that you feel like you've met before, in some aspect of your life where you could meet, and they still seem as if they would exist today in some capacity, just like you were talking about with the chick flick. Comparison, they just feel so modern, John and Isabella because the front of me the guy that that just talks about his sports car, it's just so relatable.

Izzy Meakin  34:48

I know. I know. It's just timeless.

Ann  34:51

 She's always pointing out to us that sometimes the scariest villains are the people who do realistic things you do things just that are good.

Ann  34:59

They're not murdering someone, but they're maybe murdering someone's reputation. And I love that about her. I just I love Austen. She's such a genius.

Izzy Meakin  35:08

 I know. I know. Absolutely. It's sometimes also her more secondary characters like the villains or like people like Charlotte Lucas that you'd like you said you actually do find in real life. And I just think that's like so interesting. She just had such like, a way with like, the human race that she's just like news people. So well, it's it's pretty fascinating. And she was awesome. And like a psychology degree. Awesome. Great. 

Ann  35:31

Oh, I just kind of picture her at parties. Just sitting back and watching everything that was going on and watching everybody see how the dynamics play out? Just a great study or of people for sure.

Izzy Meakin  35:45

I know, I know. So funny. Okay, great. So that's everything wrapped up then. So um, do you want to let people know where they can find you? And I will just out I'll take a couple of bits in.

Ann  35:58

Yeah, so you can find me on YouTube, which is youtube.com/princess lessons. I have a lot of blogs and bookish blogs, some Disney vlogs a lot of things that Disney parks and a lot of things with Disney characters. So if you enjoy Disney characters, you can see those there. And then I have a Bookstagram account on Instagram, which is paper dot hearts dot library.

Izzy Meakin  36:19

No, I love that. And I always love all the content that you shared. And if like me you sit around just dreaming that you'd be back at Disney then I definitely recommend following on YouTube channel because yeah, you can sit there and dream and actually watch it in person and be like, Oh, that'd be so nice if I was there right now. So yeah, I definitely recommend you subscribing there. But yeah, that's everything from us today. You can find me over on Instagram at what the Austen and I share a lot of Jane Austen content. Also, there's a lot of updates and what's coming out on the podcast. So if you just can't wait for the next episode, then yeah, find me over there. And you'll be able to see a couple of clips before the next one comes out. But that's everything from us. So thanks for joining us, and we'll see you in the next episode.