Episode 28: A Jane Bennet character study

Caily joins me in this episode to discuss the character of Jane Bennet, the supposed Ingénue of Pride and Prejudice. 

Jane is kindness itself and her beauty is unmatched in Meryton. She possesses great equanimity but is Jane's only role to be the innocent, elegant and selfless sister of headstrong Elizabeth Or does she have strength and substance in her own right.

This is what we'll be discussing today as we look more closely at her character. 

This podcast is about Janeites coming together, discussing Jane Austen's work, and having a few laughs along the way. 

We really enjoyed making this episode and we hope you like it! 

Please follow and subscribe to keep up with all the upcoming episodes.

Where can you find Caily?
Instagram: @half_agony_half_hope
Episode 2: A defence of Colonel Brandon from Sense and Sensibility
Episode 5: Discussing Jane Austen's most awkward characters  #AwkAustenAug
Episode 7: Jane Austen Villain off 2021 | Wickham v Willoughby with Caily and Ellis
Episode 9: The power of the letter in Jane Austen's work
Episode 12 & 13: Placing Austen's Heroines into Harry Potter Houses.
Episode 22: Villain 2022 | Caroline Bingley v Isabella Thorpe 

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Transcript

Izzy Meakin  00:00

Hi janeites If you're listening please follow and subscribe it really helps to grow the podcast and for me to bring you more episodes

Izzy Meakin  00:27

Hi, Janeites and welcome to episode 27 of the What the Austen? podcast. Caily is here with me today as we explore the character of Jane Bennet, the suppose it ianginue of Pride and Prejudice. Jane is kindness itself and her beauty is unmatched in meriton. She possesses great equanimity, but is Jane's only role to be the innocence elegance and selfless sister of headstrong Elizabeth? Or does Jane play a more vital role in the plot as a whole, and have a lot going on in her own storyline? This is what we'll be discussing today as we look more closely at her character. Kelly, your thoughts on today's topic?

Caily  01:01

I'm really excited to do a deep dive on Jane Bennett. Because I think when you first read Pride and Prejudice, you're so caught up in the story. And the dynamic between Lizzy and Darcy that Jane's sort of cast to the side a little bit and there's less of a focus on her. But the more I reread it, the more I do think that Jane is very formative to the plot and has a lot more depth than people give her credit for. And I also in general, just love the episode setups of the character deep dives on characters that don't really get enough attention. Yeah, I'm

Izzy Meakin  01:38

really excited for today. I think that those episodes are really great. And I know people listening really enjoy these deep dives of the the less talked about characters of the novels. And so to start with, I'm going to talk a little bit about what what the who the engineer is in literature. So why is Jean Bennett considered such in Pride and Prejudice, so the engineer has a character archetype. Generally a girl or young woman who is endearing the innocent, beautiful, kind, gentle, you may know this archetype in the context of early gothic literature. So this is the woman who is often propositioned by the vampire or the dog creature, and she's sometimes known as the damsel in distress. So although Jane isn't the heroine of Pride and Prejudice, she certainly takes at least some of the boxes of the engineer. So especially when she's depicted in contrast to her sister Elizabeth,

Caily  02:33

that's so true. I think Jane would as the engineer would be the traditional heroine, and so placed next to her sister, I think Lizzie is this very interesting, new strong willed character that kind of fights back against men in power. And so there's, there's this attraction to Lizzie's character. And there's a big focus on Lizzie. So I'm excited to do this deep dive, focusing more on Jane in her engineer role and the way that maybe she breaks out of that role, too.

Izzy Meakin  03:05

Yeah, I totally agree. Because I think that Jane often uses her abilities as an empath to have a greater understanding of people and to just see people in a more sympathetic light that maybe not everything is black and white is Lizzy oftentimes jumps to the conclusions of, and it also got me thinking what you just said, then, I don't know if you've read the book by Susan Cain called Quiet. It's kind of about empowering introverts. But basically, in that book, she says that before the 20th century, so which falls into kind of the 1800s, when, when Pride and Prejudice is set, people fell into what was called the culture of character. And this was like when the more quieter people and wisdom and kind of been a little bit more thoughtful was considered the ideal person versus during the 20th century and on to like, what we're living in now, where culture of personalities kind of taken over. And so Elizabeth really falls into like this modern perception of what it is to be, you know, a really interesting person, whereas Jane very much did suit the ideal person of her time period. So I think that's why especially as modern readers, we really latch on to Lizzie. But I think there's so much to be learned by kind of Jane's personality type and just the way that she goes about things like sometimes you do need those more softer approaches to life as opposed to the headstrong Lizzy you just jumped right in there. Oh, I love that point

Caily  04:35

that you made about genes character used to be the glorified character, the introvert, the softer, more measured character, and that Lizzie were more attracted to her fiery headstrong, willful presidents because she seems to have more personality character she's stronger. We love that she fights back against these men in power, but that's what Are you true? I love what you said about Jane and Jane. Jane has this softness, she has this empathy for every person that Lizzie is suspicious of Jane has this other perspective where she's more optimistic, and she wants to gather more information before making any kind of judgement. So I love that Jane has this empathy. But she also has this measure Enos, that I think people don't value enough. I think people very often characterise Jane as sort of in the clouds and naive. But I actually think Jane has this down to earth measured Enos that Lizzie doesn't have because Lizzie even though she's more observant, Austen really says that she's more observant. It's almost like she doesn't know what to do with her level of observance. She makes this rash judgement, whereas Jane Bennett might not see things as quickly as Lizzie does. But she also knows how to pull back and not make a rash judgement. And there's a lot of value to that.

Izzy Meakin  06:00

Absolutely. I think one of the really interesting things I found when I was starting to kind of look into Jane this time, was even though she is pretty much the favourite child of Mrs. Bennett rivalled only by Lydia, of course, she really bears the brunt of Mrs. Ben, it's crazy. And I was so shocked when I was reading, to think about the fact that Jane has been basically paraded in society since she was about 50. And looking for a husband. I mean, there's a there's an actual moment where Mrs. Bennett says, one does not often see anybody better looking. It was what everybody says, when she was only 15 There was a gentleman that my brother garden is in town, so much in love with her that my sister in law was sure he would make her an offer. I just think Isn't that so sad? Like I know, people came out early, but I just feel from 15 onwards, Jean has literally been paraded by Mrs. Bennett around society. And for someone like Jane who has such a shy nature and I think what a hellish experience.

Caily  07:08

I completely agree. I'm glad you brought up that quotation because I was just looking at that part of the book yesterday. First of all, what an awkward scene because Mrs. Bennett is saying this in front of Mr. Bingley, her current tutor and his very judgmental sisters in Mr. Darcy. So what an inappropriate story to be bringing up. But you have such a good point that I didn't even think about that. But Jane has been out on the market since she was 15. And let's think about age in the context of that time. She's supposed to be almost three and 20. And when things initially don't work out with Mr. Bingley, Lydia and other people make comments that, you know, Jane might might become an old maid. So you know, think even about Charlotte Lucas is considered almost, you know, past her prime at 27. So, Jane is not in the area of danger. But Jane is actually getting up there in age and if she's been out since 15. That's a long time, just like you said to be paraded about society by by her mother when she's an introvert. And actually, going off of that, too. I think that maybe the reason that Jane is so pulled back and reserved with her feelings for Bingley, that might be a reaction to her mom constantly loudly talking to other people about her relationship with Bingley and being so inappropriate, that her way of handling it is to actually become a lot more reserved and hold her feelings back.

Izzy Meakin  08:42

You do this? So interesting. You said that because one of the things I was going to ask you is what do you think the impact of having a mom like Mrs. Bennett would have done to Jane, I think that's such a good point. I definitely think that would make you pull back it would make you because you'd feel embarrassed and ashamed all the time. And if you already have a shy disposition, I can't think of anything was that someone constantly bragging about you? And I think what's sad about it is obviously that works for someone like Lydia because Lydia is almost a replica with her mom anyway, so she wouldn't mind all of that. But for Jane, I it is really such an awful experience. And I feel like she worries too much. It is going to reflect badly on her and it does because people pick up on it later. Mr. Darcy says, you know, there's a lot of impropriety among saying the stuff that is completely inappropriate.

Caily  09:32

Yeah. And honestly, I think the way Mrs. Bennett is impacts all the daughters, I think Jane, obviously pulls back and is a lot more reserved. And because of that, Mr. Bingley is able to be convinced by Darcy and his sisters that Jane doesn't care for him.

Izzy Meakin  09:49

And coming on to that it'd be interesting to see, you know, Jane's feelings for Mr. Bingley, because I think this is so interesting the contrast between what she's like in pub Like trying to stay polite and sophisticated and not giving too much away compared to what she's like when she's alone with Lizzie and she's able to express her true feelings. So I feel like there's a couple of scenes here that we should chat about. But I think what's really lovely is when she's alone with Lizzie that first time after meeting Mr. Bingley, and she says, he was just what a young man ought to be. She said, sensible, good humoured, lively, and he never saw such happy manners. So much ease was such perfect good breeding. I was very much flattered by him asking me to dance second time, I did not expect such a compliment. And Lizzie's reply is, did you not I did for you. But that is the great difference between us compliments always take you by surprise and me Never. And I think this is just such a great moment to show how on assuming Jean is like she's just humble. And even though this is that it declares a beauty to the world constantly. That's not something that she sits on and becomes like egotistical about it. She's like, I would say surprised, he would ask me to dance a second time. And everyone else is like, Why are you surprised you're the prettiest person here. But I just love that she is in that she's not got a big head from African that Mrs. Bennett setting for the IRS.

Caily  11:14

I love that you bring that up. Because actually, when you say that I realised that Jane and Isabella Thorpe have kind of this same setup as being the oldest daughters in the respective novels, of families that don't have finances. So they so they both have a lot of press pressure and a lot of messaging from their parents. You're the hope for the family. You're the beautiful one. And it's so interesting to see the contrast of Isabella being so egotistical and so self indulgent and so immoral. But then just like you said, seeing Jane, who remains so humble, and who ends up still being so kind and sweet tempered and other oriented, when honestly, she could have been in a position of being very egotistical based on how much her mother emphasises all the time how stunning she is and how she's the hook for the family.

Izzy Meakin  12:10

I love that comparisons. Isabella thought that's such a good one. I didn't even see it that way. Even the last people I think to compare, but you were so right, they are lit, they have the identical situation, in terms of wealth and prospects and the fact that their eldest son, considered extremely beautiful. And I agree. I mean, it's so interesting to see how different Jane could have been given the circumstances. I think that's obviously a testament to her her natural personality that she is so caring and sweet. I think what's really interesting as well, though, is Jane obviously doesn't like to, to be too obvious and public about her feelings, which I totally understand. But I think it's such an interesting see. And basically, it's people observing Jane and then losing Charlotte have a conversation about this after so it's kind of obvious to everybody that that kind of got this mutual attraction, it was not likely to be discovered by the world in general. So it's Jane united with great strength of feeling a composure of temper, and a unifier cheerfulness of manner, which would guard her from the suspicions of the impertinence. And so I think she doesn't want to expose everything. And I think that's right, because she makes herself too vulnerable if she does that.

Caily  13:23

Definitely. So I was just thinking again, I think part of jeans reserve is she's making up for the fact that her mother and her younger sisters are overly throwing themselves at men are and being so open. So I think she that's an overcorrection. And one quote that I just wanted to say about the difference between how open Jane is with Lizzie versus how she is in the ballroom setup is there's this quote that says Jane was as much gratified by this, they were talking about the fact that she was asked to dance twice by length by Bingley, and she was the only one as her mother, but in a quieter way. Lizzie felt Jane's pleasure. And so there's this idea that Jane keeps her cards close to the chest, but Lizzie knows her sister so well and can see how strong she feels. But then this dialogue with Charlotte Lucas is so interesting, where Charlotte basically says, Look, you need to Jane needs to show Bingley that she's interested and men need reassurance. And Lizzy kind of goes wait a minute what she's not even sure if her own feelings yet. It's okay that she keeps her cards close to the chest and Charlotte keeps saying over and over again that she thinks that Jane needs to be a lot more open with her feelings. And it's I don't know what you think about this, but I do think it's so interesting that because Jane is an open, Mr. Darcy and Bingley sisters are able to convince Bingley to move away from Jane And, and convince him that Jane doesn't care for him.

Izzy Meakin  15:02

Oh my gosh, there's so much for voting in this moment when Charlotte says this, and I think, I mean, obviously I did an episode on Charlotte Lucas. And I think she is she's pretty fascinating to look into her own right. But I also think it's so interesting that there's so many people around Lizzie who have such a greater understanding of people and like social situations, and she does even aloose even though Lizzie so confident in her view, that she's so often wrong, it's so often jumps to the wrong conclusion.

Caily  15:33

There's a part that I was just looking at in the book that said that Lizzie had a keener sense of observation than her sister and less pliancy of temper. So Jane Austen says directly that Lizzie is more observant. And I agree with that, like think about the fact that Lizzie observes that moment between Mr. Darcy and Wickham, where they both are alarmed seeing each other but even though she's more observant, she just she doesn't know what to do with how observant she is she miss judges. And I think it's so interesting that you talk about that with Charlotte because I actually think Charlotte Lucas is one of the most observant and socially intelligent people in Pride and Prejudice, like she truly sizes things up. And she knows that Mr. Bingley needs more reassurance from Jane. Isn't that interesting?

Izzy Meakin  16:23

I think considering Charlotte Lucas is at such risk of becoming an old bade she actually has such good knowledge of men. Yeah, he's the way that she goes about like getting Mr. Collins, she does exactly what she needs to do to secure Mr. Collins in that moment. I think Austen even calls it like she she schemed or conspired to get Mr. Collins and obviously we use that in kind of a negative context sometimes. But I do think it was in a negative context. Charlotte Lucas knows what to do to get it she is extremely systematic.

Caily  16:56

She really is. And that's so funny. I never thought of it that way. But for someone who's in danger of becoming an old man, she has such a knowledge of men. Yes, I think she's so people savvy. And that's why it's especially heartbreaking that she ends up with someone who's so so socially inept and unintelligent.

Izzy Meakin  17:15

But another thought on this with J in the fact that she keeps her cards close to her chest when it comes to feelings for being ugly. It really got me thinking about how in a lot of Austen novels, if you're this person that's kind of on the shyer side, or you're a little bit more reserved, you run the risk of losing your happiness. Like it's, it's so clear, like, if you think about an when Louisa starts flirting with Wentworth, you think about Eleanor and the situation with Lucy Steele and Edward, think about funny price. You know, I feel like all of these people, it's, they're not being outspoken, and a lot of these characters run the risk of not being heard at all. And so their feelings become either misconstrued or a thought not to exist in the first place.

Caily  18:04

Oh my gosh, wait, you're blowing my mind with that comment about? Yes, the introverts go through so much pain and internal angst. And yeah, there's this, it's like, their lover gets torn away from them. And they, it's like, they're gonna lose their happiness. Although usually Jane rewards them and then they usually get the guy and, and but I never made that connection before. That's so brilliant. And I

Izzy Meakin  18:29

don't know if that's an observation that Jane made in our own life where she was like, actually, you know, introverts really have to slip it to get what they want, because which I think totally contradicts what I was saying before about that notion that history and see that the culture of character versus culture of personality, because it seems like in Austen's novels, you know, the people that are outspoken and louder they seem to get to that goal much faster if you think about someone like Mary Crawford. I mean, she pretty much just like boom sorted in Lizzie she doesn't need to convince Darcy to like Dottie falls for her pretty quickly obviously has to go through a lot of inner turmoil to to propose and it's failed many times but you know, he's he's not thank you do all I could do I know it's like boom he falls far because she's she's got something that's interesting, outspoken and difference.

Caily  19:22

Definitely. And with Lizzie it works out and it's sustained even though it's a wild roller coaster ride, but I'm actually thinking you're right that the extroverted characters get what they want sooner but there isn't that long standing longevity to it usually like think about Lucy Steele. She got what she wanted initially. Think about even Marianne with Willoughby she was very extroverted and open with her love, but then it was kind of this burning fire that couldn't sustain itself. And so oh my gosh, wow. This is making me think about introverts and extroverts in the novel. We should do an episode on that.

Izzy Meakin  19:57

I never because I even thought about like I was like it Is Jamie Lee, an introvert. And I thought Yes, in the aspect that she, she is comforted by people that she's close to, like, she just goes to Lizzie for advice and to speak her truth too. And for introverts, that is often the case, they have that closer person or closer people that they're able to confide in. But then I've also like, she was very keen to keep up the connections with Caroline Bingley. She put herself out there to be with people. And for someone who's who's an introvert. I mean, that's, you know, she's really putting herself out of her comfort zone to do that reaching out to Caroline waiting and everyday for her to come and visit sending her letters. You know, she she really reached for that, that super social interaction there. And obviously, it didn't, didn't work out, which will be something interesting to come on to next. But just before we move on to that, I thought it'd be good to talk about the fact that Lizzie sends Jane off to kind of investigate the Wycombe Darcy situation. And you know that Jane goes off and she's like, stupid, and she's like, what's going on? Blah, blah, blah, asking all about it and comes back and reports back to Lizzie. So Elizabeth starts telling Jane all about you know, Darcy and all these cries which is quite, quite keen to latch on to. And Jane listened with astonishment and concern. She knew not how to believe that Mr. Darcy could be so unworthy of Mr. bengalese regard. And I think a lot of it does come from Jane's love for Mr. Bingley and thinking, you know, oh my gosh, well, how could he possibly be so deceived by all these people, and I'm so worried for him now. But Jean gets quite stubborn in this moment against Lizzie because Lizzie is kind of teasing her because Jane saying I don't believe that people could be so I don't believe it could be so black and white. Surely there must be this middle ground where they've both done stuff for that people to have these ideas about them. And Jane says, laugh as much as you choose. But you will not laugh me out of my opinion. My dearest Lizzy do but consider in what's the disgraceful light it places Mr. Darcy to be treating his father's favourite in such a manner when his father has promised to provide for it is impossible. No man of common humanity. No man who had any value for his character could be capable of it. Can his most intimate friends be so excessively deceived in him? I just think Jane is like onto something. Here we before Lizzie is because Lizzie has just latched on to everything. Mr. Wickham said.

Caily  22:25

I completely agree with that. I think just like you said, a huge part of the Passion hear from Jean is she's really attached to Bingley at this point. And she has faith in his judgement. And she just doesn't think things add up that Mr. Bingley could ever have this longstanding friendship with Darcy, if Darcy's a villain. And I think where Jane gets discredited by people sometimes is she her lens is giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. So I think in this moment, she's trying to give Mr. Darcy the benefit of the doubt. But she's also trying to give Mr. Wickham the benefit of the doubt. And Lizzie's going. Come on. It is black and white. We, you know, they can't both be good. But then I really think that Jane does give people the benefit of the doubt until she has hard evidence that someone is in the wrong and then once someone is in the wrong, she'll get on board. And she'll she'll agree, like even with not to get too off topic, but even with Caroline Bingley, when Karen initially when Lizzie tries to warn her about Caroline Bingley, Jane's like, no, no, I think she cares for me. But then when Caroline Bingley snubs her, Jane is able to let go of that optimism and say, No, Lizzie, I understand that. Caroline Bingley no longer has any regard for me, and she didn't. And she's not a true friend. So I don't think she's as naive as everyone thinks. I think she just doesn't want to demonise anyone until there's a legitimate reason.

Izzy Meakin  23:56

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And I think it it like you were saying there though about that is Jane goes and tries to find answers. So she goes to Bingley and asks him about it, which I think is a really bold thing to do, you know, to actually go and I think is a testament to how close they are at this point. But you've got to be close to someone to go and ask questions that are quite intimate about somebody's closest friend.

Caily  24:19

Oh, absolutely. And Jane didn't have to do that. You know, I was just reviewing the Netherfield ball. Chapter. And Jane and Bingley are kind of in the clouds and Jane's not even noticing all of the antics her family is getting up to because she's kind of glowing and just so happy to be with family. So it was really a selfless act for her to be asking him all this stuff about Wickham and his best friend on this night where she's just living her best life and in the moment with Bingley

Izzy Meakin  24:50

Yeah, I think this like a really funny quote where it was it was like, I guess you forgot to ask about the Mr. Weekend situation in jeans like no, I have not forgotten and there's It's

Caily  25:02

totally Jane's like beaming smile. That's so funny. Yeah, that seems so interesting.

Izzy Meakin  25:08

I know it says here is all the Elizabeth listen with delight to the happy boom modest hopes which Jane entertained of English regard. And I just think, although this was like super fast, Jane really just full hard for bangli in this moment and I think is read as we can appreciate the bengalese really falling for her as well. And I think both of them are kind of devalued by people in the sense that people just think, oh, you know, you've fallen for people in the past. I think Mr. Darcy makes that comment about being glib, and being slightly fickle that he's like, he always finds women attractive. And Lizzy makes a similar comment to Jane where she says, like, you know, you've fallen for stupid person. You know, I'm happy with being ugly, because you know, you've, you've fallen for weirdos in the past. So I just think it's interesting. I do think people truly appreciate the the level of depth that they that their feelings are at this point.

Caily  26:05

That is very true. It's kind of it's actually swinging one way or the other. It's either this, oh, they've fallen for people before they could fall for people again, or it's Mr. or Mrs. Bennett or Sir William Lucas going, Lizzy, are you looking for that? Are you looking forward to the happy event taking place? Like they're sort of prematurely assuming that they're going to get married? It's kind of one or the other instead of just letting them be and letting their connection build?

Izzy Meakin  26:37

I know, I know. But jumping back to something you said earlier about Caroline being late. I think a good thing sort of talk about next would probably be the letter and that whole shenanigans because I mean, oh my goodness, this is the kind of the start of Jane's suffering, unfortunately. So this is like really interesting. So Jane receives this letter in Lizzy can instantly know when Jane kind of reads a couple of lines that the subject of it is not good news, in Jane's really distressed by it, but Jane puts on a good face to finish the conversation that she's in and then kind of goes and speaks to Lizzie about it in private. And obviously the letter itself. I mean, do you want to chat about the contents of the letter and Caroline's you know, disregard for for any human emotion?

Caily  27:22

Yeah, so I mean, I think we talked about this letter a little bit too. And the villain off between Caroline Bingley and Isabella Thorpe. But you just feel for Jane so much because this is who she thinks her personal close friend. And she's just totally blindsided by this friend leaving and then also saying that Jane's love interest is leaving and there's just a tonne of gaslighting that happens here. You know, I'm just looking at this. I do not pretend to regret anything I shall leave in Hartfordshire except your society, my dearest friend. And so you know, she says, Oh, I miss you. But then she she, she talks about Bingley, leaving in such this sort of a nonchalant, aloof way, and then alludes to the fact that Bingley is interested in Darcy sister and I just cannot imagine how hurt Jane must be feeling and how blindsided. So here's a quote from Caroline's letter. When Charles gets to town, he will be in no hurry to leave it again. AKA you're not important enough for him to come back to you. And then she goes, Mr. Darcy is impatient to see his sister and to confess the truth. We are scarcely less eager to meet her again. I really do not think Georgiana Darcy has her equal for beauty, elegance and accomplishments, and the affection she inspires and Louisa and myself is heightened into something still more interesting, from the hope we dare to entertain of being here after our sister. I don't know whether I ever before mentioned to you my feelings on this subject. But I will not leave the country without confiding them, and I trust you will not esteem them unreasonable. My brother admires her greatly already, he will have frequent opportunity. Now I've seen her on the most intimate footing. Her relations all wished the connection as much as his own and assisters partiality is not misleading. I think, when I call Charles most capable of an engaging any woman's heart. I just there's so much gaslighting and there's so much hurt there. There's no way that Caroline didn't see the connection between Jane and Bingley. And so not only is she dumping the information on Jane, that she and her brother are leaving, but she's also suggesting the fact that Jane's not important enough to come back to and that he's more Interested in Darcy's sister? Like, could you have a more hurtful letter to even?

Izzy Meakin  30:05

And I feel like because I've just reread Pride and Prejudice. Well, you know, having extra emphasis on Jane, I feel that so much more like when you just read it then I was, I feel so emotional right now because it's so cruel. Like it's it's so mean to do that. And like you said to just be like nonchalant about it like, oh, well, I don't think I've ever mentioned this this topic before. But I will now before I leave the country, it's like, it's obvious. You've done that purposely, because why would you possibly bring up just like a whole new topic about zoom in unless you wanted to make a point about it

Caily  30:39

totally. And this is I will say this is one of the few parts where I do get frustrated with Jane's naivety because this letter is so mean spirited. But Caroline tries to manipulate Jane, I think she knows that she's kind hearted. And so this final sentence is sort of Caroline's saying, Well, you can't be upset about this, right? Like, can't you be happy for us? Like, here's what she says, with all these circumstances to favour an attachment and nothing to prevent it? Am I wrong, my dearest Jane, and indulging the hope of an event which will secure the happiness of so many? Ah, me so upset.

Izzy Meakin  31:19

And that's the thing she knows Jane well enough to know what to play on. Because Jane really buys into that. She's like, of course, I want them to be happy. Like, I'm very obviously devastated that he doesn't love me because I really thought he did. But I won't. What will make him happy? And also what will make his sisters happy? Because she's so selfless. And these people are horrible.

Caily  31:39

Exactly. And then it's so painful to see. When she is asking Lizzie to help her make sense of it. And she's trying to get Caroline the benefit of the doubt. Here's what she says. She says, What Thank you have this sentence My dear Lizzy, is it not clear enough? Does it not expressly declare that Caroline neither expects nor wishes me to be her sister, that she's perfectly convinced of her brother's indifference? And that if she suspects the nature of my feelings for him, she means most kindly to put me on my guard. Can there be any other opinion on the subject? And we're all like, yes, there can do yes, there can. You know,

Izzy Meakin  32:18

I know it's honestly so frustrating. But at the same time, I think again, she may be seen it from the perception of the way that she saw the Darcy Wycombe situation is, how can somebody like Mr. Bingley, who I love so dearly. Be so deceived by the people closest to him? How can his sisters be so unkind when he's in her eye? You know, in her eyes, he is the kindest, most lovely, wonderful man in the world. Like she's like, How can anybody close to him have such negative energy? And I understand Jane, I understand.

Caily  32:52

Totally, oh, now that you say that that's so true. So this is her lens of giving people the benefit of the doubt. And sometimes it doesn't work in her favour. Sometimes it does make her a little bit too naive and giving people too much credit where credit isn't due. And then other times, it actually helps her to be more astute. And she's actually right. So I just thought about this situation where obviously, Jane gives Caroline Bingley, too much credit and the way that she gives people the benefit of the doubt, doesn't really work in her favour. But then sometimes it does. And sometimes she's actually right. Oh, instead of Lizzie. And so I was actually thinking of a pretty minut part of the book that I usually pass over. But there's a scene that I now think is really important in chapter five. And it's when people are really disgruntled with Mr. Darcy, and they're villainizing him. They're labelling him as proud, conceited, full of himself rude. And there's a particular scene with Mrs. Long where he's sitting next to her and for a half an hour. He's not talking to her. And Mrs. Long is trying to make conversation and he's very curt and concise and terse with his answers. And people are trying to villainize him. And then Jane basically says that she thinks that she allows for the possibility that Mr. Darcy is just shy, and he might not be comfortable around people that he doesn't know very well. And she said that she gathered information from Caroline Bingley that when Mr. Darcy doesn't know people very well, he's just a little bit shy or a little bit more quiet. And so she allows for the possibility that this might not be a character defect, it might just be that he, you know, isn't as socially apt with people he doesn't know. And she's the only person in the crowd that's talking with Mrs. Bennet and Lizzie and everyone else who tries to give him the benefit of the doubt. And, you know, as we continue reading the book, we realise she's right and Mr. Darcy himself later admits you know, I'm not The best at recommending myself to strangers before I know them well. And so that's an example of Jane's benefit of the doubt, actually being the right thing to do. And she's the one who has the best judgement of the situation.

Izzy Meakin  35:12

Maybe Rikishi has the most in common with Darcy, I think. Jane isn't in the privileged position where she can give people short answers and not be kind of this wonderful, polite kind individual. But she can probably really relate to Darcy in the sense of feeling shy and not feeling like you want to talk to strangers all the time. And not feeling like he wants to be paraded around because Dawsey very much like Jane is, you know, all eyes are on him. And everyone's going Mr. Darcy, there's metadata that has been scrutinised and looked at constantly. And I feel like if all the characters in the novel Jane has the most in common with Darcy, when, when they're both American,

Caily  35:52

you're so spot on. I never made that parallel. Jane's the most beautiful woman in the room. Everyone's looking at Jane Jane's the prize object. Mr. Darcy handsome, this guy in the room. He's the prized object to with the great fortune, everyone has eyes on him. And both of them have that shy, introverted character. You're so right. So she can actually empathise with his perspective,

Izzy Meakin  36:15

which again, makes sense of the people they pick to confide in. So, you know, they each have their own Lizzie Oh, my friendly pics Darcy who's very much like Lizzie, and obviously, Jane has Lizzie herself. I think it just shows how similar they are in personality.

Caily  36:30

Girl, you are blowing my mind today.

Izzy Meakin  36:39

So we think a good thing after this letter to move on to is the fact that Jane writes a speedy response to Caroline, but basically trying to keep that friendship alive because Caroline makes that a point that that's something that she wants. But unfortunately, Jamie, it's a very long time for a reply. And Caroline makes a comment that maybe we might be coming back for the winter time. And so everybody's kind of under this thing that maybe he's going to come back maybe he'll come back and everybody's waiting on that excited about that. And obviously as time goes by people come more and more kind of, you know, thinking this isn't going to happen. And there's a quote that says, As for Jane, her anxiety into the suspense was, of course more painful than Elizabeth. But whatever she felt was the serious of concealing and between herself and Elizabeth therefore, the subject was never alluded to. But as no such delicacy restrained her mother and ourselves and past in which she did not talk of being late express her and patients of his arrival, or even require Jane to confess that if he did not come back, that she would think herself very ill used. It needed all of Jane steady mildness too bad these attacks with terrible trunk tranquillity. And I just think again, here we go. Mrs. Better. I know that she obviously loves Jane as a daughter, but she really does make Jane's life helis Jane is is suffering now being clean is going away. She has no idea if she's going to come back. She's probably questioning her own thought processes her own feelings like how could I have been so wrong? And Mrs. Bennett, making it the topic of conversation every five seconds? I mean, can you imagine the pain that would be hellish?

Caily  38:13

No, I can't. I mean, Mrs. Bennett just takes up so much space with her own emotions about things and her own grief about mainly. And I just think that Jane and Lizzie have to constantly be in the role of mediators, they have to calm their mother all the time and manage her emotions. So Jane doesn't really have, you know, she doesn't really have the space to express her own grief about being ugly. And on top of that, she has to be hearing about him and managing her mom's grief over the situation like how devastating

Izzy Meakin  38:45

I know. And it only gets worse, because after obviously, Jane then gets a reply from Caroline Bingley. And Jane's response after reading this second letter is, oh, that my team ever had more command over herself. She can have no idea of the pain she gives me of her continual reflections on him, but I will not repaint he may live in my memory is the most amiable man of my acquaintance. But that is all I have nothing to either hope nor fear, and nothing to reproach and with Thank God, I have not that pain a little time therefore, I shall certainly try to get the better. Isn't that break your heart I just feel so sad for her because this is just awful. She's She has really suffered. And this has been at work stop going on about it. And now she's pretty much got confirmation that the Bingley isn't going to come back and she's having to confront the fact that now she's got these feelings that are just kind of useless. Like they're just going to be there. She's just going to be they're just going to be painful memories for

Caily  39:41

Yeah, and let's call a spade a spade even though he redeems himself later and he's a sweet dude. He abandons her like for this part of the story, he abandons her. And I think the devastating part is her knowledge that he's not coming back, but that still she can think so well of him. them and she doesn't hold resentment against him and doesn't hold anything against him. And instead, you just see her sitting with the pain and sitting with the wound still loving him like she doesn't have any anger at him to protect herself with anger, that protective emotion, she doesn't have that she just has the pain of losing him.

Izzy Meakin  40:21

And worse than that she actually thinks it's an error or fancy on her side alone. She's like, this is my fault for falling for somebody who, you know, wasn't ever interested in me. I have caused myself this pain. It obviously Lizzie jumps in my teeth. Jane explains Elizabeth, you are too good. I feel as if I have never done you justice or loved you as you deserve. I feel it's how we all feel right now. Like in reading you really trying periods for Jane. I feel like I have never loved her as well as she deserves. And it's honestly such an awful, awful time. And this leads Lizzy to make the statement where she goes, you know, the more I see of the world, the more I'm dissatisfied with it. And she goes on a whole rant about Charlotte and you know, lack of love and marriage. And Jane, This really hurts Jane because she says I will not let you know what's happened to me ruin your happiness. So I feel like in this moment, Jane makes a really interesting and I don't want to say intelligent because she is intelligent, but a very insightful comment when it comes to Charlotte's and Collins's marriage. And I think there's a there's a good quote on this. I don't know. Do you know what I want about?

Caily  41:32

Yes, I know what quotation you're talking about. And you're so right. Jane just has this unique ability to really put herself in other people's shoes and see different perspectives on people. And this quotation she really shows how Charlotte does see good qualities about the potential marriage to Mr. Collins. And so here's the quotation. My dear Lizzy, do not give way to such feelings as these, they will ruin your happiness. You do not make allowance enough for difference of situation and temper. Consider Mr. Collins's respectability, and Charlotte's steady, prudent character. Remember that she is one of the large family that as to Fortune is a most eligible match, and be ready to believe for everybody's sake, that she may feel something like regard and esteem for our cousin.

Izzy Meakin  42:24

They also wise words right there. And I think Lizzy sometimes doesn't take the time to think of things in that wise way. You know, Lizzie makes witty intelligent comments, but she's very quick to make them whereas Jane really ponders on things. And she sees things from not only an empathetic, empathetic stance, but also from a really practical stance. She's not a stranger to what society expects of people. And she knows that. I mean, a perfect example is the fact that she is really shy and doesn't like to be uprooted around necessarily, but she does it for the benefit of her family. She knows what is expected of her and she she makes it work. And I think she can probably see in Charlotte's situation, a similar dynamic that Charlotte really needed to protect her family. I think that's something that Lizzie maybe misses sometimes, because I think Lizzie like her father often sees the silliness with her sisters and her mum, but I think Jane sees it from a I want to look after my family and the people I love, I want them to be happy.

Caily  43:27

That is so true. I think we've we've talked about Jane as this kind selfless empathic character, and she does embody all of those qualities. But actually, she has this practicality about things, just like you said, that Lizzie doesn't have Lizzie gets very fiery and set in her ways. Whereas Jane's able to see, you know what, Charlotte is actually going to be grateful for Mr. Collins because she values financial security, and she values having her own home. And, you know, maybe Jane's going slightly a little too far with saying that Charlotte regards and super esteemed Mr. Collins. And I think we both know that Charlotte doesn't super respect him as a person, but Charlotte cared about having a comfortable home. She said that she said she wasn't a romantic. And I think what Jane's also saying here is Lizzie, you're going to make yourself unhappy because your judgement of your friends decision is going to make you distant from her is going to make you feel detached from her and her feel detached from you. And so, and I think part of that's true, I think Lizzie does feel kind of removed from Charlotte in a way after she marries Mr. Collins. And so just like you said, I think it's very astute that Jane reminds Lizzie not to be overly judgmental in this situation if she wants to maintain a close relationship with her dear friend.

Izzy Meakin  44:53

And the word judgmental is exactly what was coming to mind for me because I think Lizzie can be very judgmental at times. And I think Jane really just tried to rein that in with a sister. She's kind of like, you know, don't don't jump to the conclusions on people you know, you have to get care about your fellow human to the extent that you can understand the reasons that they may do things even if it differs to what you would do yourself or your opinions on things. You know, you have to accept for different opinions and different personality types. I think what's obviously kind of what is pretty sad, but also really respectable of Jane is obviously she has all this crisis with Caroline, she goes to London to see her. Caroline never really shows up until she does and then she's not very friendly when she does anyway. In Jane's letter to Lizzie where she says it My dearest Lizzy, you will i am sure being capable of triumphing in my better judgement at my expense when I confess myself to be an entirely deceived by Miss Bingley's regard for me. Obviously, the letter continues, but I think that's the most poignant part of it is, I think, what's obviously really sad as Jane has to come to the realisation that Caroline isn't the nicest of people. But I also think it's really interesting and respectable that that Jane is able to self reflect, and realise she was in the wrong and admit she was in the wrong and do it in such a graceful way. I think a lot of characters don't manage to do that. And it's almost becomes embarrassing. I think Lizzie obviously has many attire where she's very embarrassed from the way that she's, you know, what she's believed to be true, which then turns out not to be. Whereas I feel like Jane, does this in such an elegant way where she's like, you know, I hope you're not gonna feel, you know, like, I told you so and this scenario, because I am really upset about it. But I do see now that Miss Bingley was never my true friend.

Caily  46:54

Yeah, let's I think, just like you said, I, Jane is such a class act, she handles things with grace, she can self reflect. And when there's evidence that people aren't who they say they are, people aren't acting in a good way towards her, she, she will set her boundaries, like the end of that is, she says, and was in every respect, so altered a creature that when she went away, I was perfectly resolved to continue the acquaintance no longer. So, again, it's that I will give people the benefit of the doubt until there's evidence that if until there's evidence to the contrary, and so here, she's able to see Caroline, for who she truly is, and set a boundary.

Izzy Meakin  47:45

Yes. And you know, I don't see it as a weakness that Jane has this perception of people where she just try and give people the benefit of the doubt.

Caily  47:54

I'm looking at this letter to. And she says, But my dear sister, though the event has proved You're right. Do not think be obstinate. If I still assert that considering what her behaviour was, my confidence was as natural as your suspicion. And when I read that, I think, Wait a minute, Jane had a lot more of a reason to think well of Caroline because Caroline and Louisa at many, in many instances, were always super kind to Jane and authentically clicked with her and sought her out at the beginning before they realised that, you know, Mr. Bingley was in danger of falling in love with her. And so, you know, it's easy for Lizzie to kind of vilify them because they weren't as nice to Lizzie but they actually did give Jane a lot of signs that they cared for her.

Izzy Meakin  48:42

Yes, absolutely. This is a scene in particular where they're having like a really great conversation. They're enjoying each other's company. And it's only when Mr. Darcy enters the room that Caroline's attention shifts because other than that she is super attentive to Jane she I think she used to an extent did really enjoy a company but but I think was interesting after this point as we move into a period where Jane isn't present physically, but we do hear about her and about the Bingley Jane scenario Colonel Fitzwilliam spills the beans to Elizabeth that Mr. Darcy has separated a couple he thought for for their benefit, obviously, we know differently. And Lizzie really ponders on this and she thinks on Jane's kind of well, she says affectionate, generous heart. But also I think what's really interesting is this is also the time when Lizzie gets the letter from Darcy. And she starts to reflect back on what Charlotte Lucas initially said about Jane and her not, you know, being open about her feelings and how that could drastically affect Mr. Bingley's assurance on the relationship as a whole.

Caily  49:47

No. And can we just talk about what a difficult position women were in generally because on the one side, you have Lydia and Mrs. Bennett and if you're over the top about showing affection, your call impropriety bias and you know, like a loose woman or whatever. But then if you're too reserved, you see the consequences of that to someone can be persuaded out of believing that you have strong feelings for them. So just kind of feel like we I don't know, I just think women were in a tough spot. And that day and age, it was hard to find the right balance.

Izzy Meakin  50:22

Oh my gosh, absolutely. In obviously, Lizzie goes back for this information, including the information that she now has on Wickham, it I think there is an absolutely brilliant scene, when Lizzie is speaking to Jane about you know, what's in this letter. The Wickham was available along in I just think jeans response to Lizzie, where she basically is just like, well, this is awkward. I mean, I look at everything that you've said about Wickham and Darcy, I mean, how embarrassing this you've really. Like, she just seemed like a really kind, right? But Lucy's on the other end. And she's just like, yes, thank you, Jane. I am aware. I just think it's absolutely brilliant. But some of the some of the quotes from this moment. Oh, so before this happens, Lizzie ponders whether or not she's gonna even tell Jane any of this because she says, what a stroke was this for poor Jane, who would willingly have gone through the world without believing that so much wickedness existed in the whole race of mankind. And here it was collected in one individual. So this is obviously referring to Wickham, and she's got the tailboard J. And that actually, you know, there is this evil in the world. And it's it wears red. And it's Mr. Wickham. And for Jane, this is like, what this is actually mad that somebody could be so awful. She says, like poor Wickham that he's so bad. She says, you know this such an expression of goodness in his countenance, such an openness and gentleness and his manner. But then obviously, she goes on to this thing, where she's basically telling Lizzie like, Oh, how embarrassing that you were so cool to Mr. Darcy, you know, after everything, and then you meet you basically forced him to write this letter, you know, explaining everything and just Lizzie's response, where she's just like, yes. Thank you, Jay. I just think this a brilliant moment between the two of them, when she's not being cruel and doing that, but she's also like, she genuinely thinking, Oh, my gosh, how awkward for you like, he was so wrong about oil.

Caily  52:20

Jane's empathising, with everyone in that situation. Even Mr. White Wickham. One thing I was just thinking about is, there's such a feeling of Lizzie being afraid of Jane being taken advantage of in the book and she wants to. She wants to protect Jane's gentle heart, but I think I think she doesn't give enough credit to Jane's resilience. Like Jane is so strong, she does bear the weight of Bingley leaving her she moves on from the fact that Caroline totally ditched her and one thing that actually annoys me in the story as much as I love Jane and Elizabeth's relationship is Lizzy sometimes hide things from Jane until a particular moment and I'm like, You need to have more faith in your sister's resilience and you guys need each other right now. What's What What's with all the secrecy?

Izzy Meakin  53:14

Yes, she always has. She's like, Oh, Jane wouldn't be able to manage this ordeal with this is so true.

Caily  53:21

And Jane if you think about it, she carries so much weight in the novel like Jane's the one at home with Mr. And Mrs. Bennett when they find out about Lydia and Jane not only has to carry the weight of her breakup and her friend ditching her, but she has to be the one at home who's caretaking to Mrs. Bennett while Mrs. Bennett's breaking down. Jane is the one caretaking to Mr. And Mrs. Gardner's children because she's a favourite of theirs. Jane bears a lot and she does it without showing any kind of emotion like Jane is extremely strong. And so part of me gets annoyed that it almost feels like Lizzy belittles her a little bit or maybe that's too strong. But Lizzie could have more faith in her sister strength.

Izzy Meakin  54:06

I agree. I really do agree. I think there's a release side quote kind of later on, like Jane still reflecting on all of this. And thinking about you know, what's past with Bingley, the fact that she's heartbroken that he's gone away. And the quote goes, Jane was not happy. She still cherished a very tender affection for being Lee, having never ever fancied herself in love before. Her regard had all the warmth for the first attachment. And from her age and disposition, greater steadiness than most first attachments often boast. And so for reverently, does she value his remembrance and prefer him to every other man. At this point. I think this is a really good insight as a reader that the narrative gives us that this is true love for Jane like that she very much lives bangli this isn't a fleeting thing. I mean, this could very much be an animal when live situation how do you not come back? This is something that is a lasting love. And she still feels cast for him even though he's gone away. And even though she's having to deal with the fact that she thinks he's gonna marry Miss Miss Darcy,

Caily  55:09

oh my gosh, I cannot. I cannot even imagine the fact that you know, like, at least with Marianne and Willoughby, this Miss Grey person wasn't someone that she knew. Whereas, for Jane, she knew Darcy so she's imagining that Mr. Bingley's with the sister of someone that she knows who's of higher class, like just how much she has to hold. So, so devastating.

Izzy Meakin  55:36

I know and you've already pretty much mentioned about the fact that she is such a caretaker and obviously that escalates when the Lydia situation comes up, and that very much throws her future in jeopardy as well. But then, on a happier note, Mr. Bingley does come back, so he comes back to the area and obviously starts to visit longboard again. But at this point, Jane is you know, she's very concerned because she's gone through so much. And she says, I begin to be sorry that he comes out also Jane's her sister, it would be nothing. I could see him with perfect indifference, but I can hardly bear to hear at the loss perpetually tucked off. My mother means well, but she does not know. No one can know how much I suffer from what she says. Happy shall I be when her stay at Netherfield is over? And again, Miss Mrs. Bennett put strain through so much more pain than she needs to be she's already suffering. I feel like this shows the start of the shift in Jane where she starts to put her guard up a little bit more she starts to think I need to protect myself because I've been through so much. It's like there's been so much going on. I need to protect myself. I don't want you. Obviously I still love him. But I don't I don't want to put all my happiness. You know all my eggs in one basket because he left once before and I don't even know if he has feelings for me because Caroline didn't think you did. Totally.

Caily  56:59

When you say that I just realised Of course she's gonna have her guard up even more than she did at the beginning because think about how many times she's been completely blindsided in a situation completely blindsided when Bingley leaves completely blindsided when Caroline Bingley shunts her in London, completely blindsided by this Lydia situation having to caretake to her parents, and then completely blindsided when all of a sudden he comes back to another field. And she's like, wait, what's going on? I mean, I don't know how she stayed grounded with all of that happening.

Izzy Meakin  57:34

Absolute madness. And obviously, this just have a happy ending. And he proposes and she's absolutely over the moon. And I think was really nice people comments on how much alike they are. Like, I feel like in this moment, everybody says like, if you will kind of forget about the fact that he went away and everything people like actually, this is like the perfect match. They couldn't be more alike in their temperaments. And you know, the way that they treat people and how kindly brief are. But I think by the end of the novel, there's a couple of shifts that have happened in Jane, I think, first that one that we were just talking about there. I think the next one is when she thinks about Caroline and the fact that Pingelly basically says he had no idea that she was in London. And Jane says, you know, it must have been a sister's doing once they see that their brother is happy. I'm sure we'll be on good terms again. But we will never be as what we what we once were to each other. And this really reflects on a conversation earlier in the novel that she has with Lizzie where Lizzie says, you know, would you sacrifice Carolina? Mrs. hearses, happiness for your own happiness with Bingley? And Jane says like, How could you even ask me that question? Of course I would. And I think by the end of the novel, we see that in action, I think she holds true to that, because I don't think she's necessarily this. I think she obviously she is completely empathetic, and she is kind and generous and sweet. But I think in the middle of the novel, she she thinks I lovingly enough that I would, I would fight for my own happiness. And I think by the end of the novel, she demonstrates that that is exactly what she would do. And she does that in this case. And also she does it in the case that I noticed at the very end, but she eventually moves away from Mrs. Bennett, because she realises that, you know, she can't bear it anymore. Even her sweet disposition cannot take Mrs. Bennett on the case all the time. And I think that's another example of how she she grows and she learns to protect herself.

Caily  59:28

Absolutely. I'm so glad that you brought up that quotation toward the end of the book where Jane says, you know, Caroline, and I might improve our relationship, but I will never fully trust her the way that I did before and it won't be the same and I think that's healthy and protective. And so she does evolve a lot as a person. Yes, she is more naive earlier in the book, and then she, this might sound overly negative, but there's a way that she gets a little jaded, but I almost think it's healthy because she learns to be Be a little bit savage savvier. And I see it as being self protecting. And I was thinking, I love the quotation from Mr. Bennett when he is talking about Jane and Bingley being such a good match. And it's so true. But I think this quotation, this is his view of Jane. And this is the Jane that we see at the beginning of the novel before she she's evolved. But here, here's the quote, he says, You are a good girl, and I have great pleasure and thinking you will be so happily settled. I have no doubt of you're doing very well together. Your tempers are by no means unlike you are each of you so complying, that nothing will ever be resolved on, so easy that every servant will cheat you and so generous that you will always exceed your income. And I love that because I think that does portray Jane and Bingley's mutual sweetness and charisma and generosity. But I also think that doesn't give Jane enough credit. I think Jane actually has more like a stubbornness to her and a level headedness and a practicality and greater wisdom that I don't think she's a pushover anymore, just like you said.

Izzy Meakin  1:01:11

And I think she actually responds back to him in that way. Because when I was reading it this time, I never actually acknowledged this point before. But she actually responds back to Mr. Bennett's comments on this.

Caily  1:01:23

Do you remember that? And I'm so

Izzy Meakin  1:01:25

new, I've never I've never, I never thought on it until I literally saw it this last time. Basically, I can't find the exact quote. But basically, she says something along the lines of oh, I hope and I feel like I'm a little bit more. She says, I think I'm much better at accounting and, you know, planning things out then then that is a really short line. But I thought you're not so interesting that she turns around to Mr. Bennett. And she says, Oh, I don't I actually don't think I would be like that. Obviously, I've loved reading like this whole Jane Sitchin or you

Caily  1:02:00

need to and now that we're talking about it, it's okay. Yes, she definitely is a little bit more naive at the beginning, and she evolves as a character and becomes older and wiser and all of that. But when you just said that about her family, and people not giving her enough credit to stand her ground, I realised that two quotations we haven't talked about yet that I have that I took note of when reading about Jane earlier in the novel. It's two examples of her holding her ground. But when I first read the novel, I kind of pass them over. And so I'm going by here, here's one quotation basically, it's a well known dialogue between Lizzie and Jane. And it's one Jane first admits that she likes Bingley. And Lizzy, in my opinion, is extremely condescending to her sister here, but Lizzie says, You never see fault in anybody. You're too apt to liking people in general. And then I never really focused on Jane's response here, which is, I would not wish to be hasty in censoring others. But I always say what I think and I think that's true. She does Jane is Jane is honest. And another one that I thought was really telling was when Jane's sick at another field, and she and Lizzie kind of overstay their welcome and Bingley sisters are really ready for them to get out of there. And Mrs. Bennett is saying, I'm not going to send the carriage yet don't come home yet. And Mr. Bingley says to Jane, stay, you're not well enough. And then there's a quotation here that I think is really telling. And it says Jane was firm where she felt herself to be right. And so Jane is the one that says, Nope, I'm not going to stay. We're going home. So there are little signals the whole time that maybe Jane does stand her ground more often. But she's she's just sort of overlooked by people and not taking us seriously.

Izzy Meakin  1:03:59

And I think it's so easy to mistake Jane's quote sometimes is Lizzie's close, especially when she has those moments of being a little bit more stubborn or a little bit more outspoken. It's a bit like there you will not laugh me out with my opinion, quote. Right. Girl

Caily  1:04:14

I thought when you said that, I attributed that quotation to Lizzie I thought Lizzie right and I think maybe the reason for that is okay, may it correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure and one of the Pride and Prejudice adaptations. They have Lizzy say that quotation, I think maybe in the 1995 Lizzy says that quotation. But anyway, I totally forgot that that quotation was Jane I totally think

Izzy Meakin  1:04:41

quite possibly Yeah, I think definitely that that might be the case because I think in most people's minds it's in routed as a as a Lizzie quote, but I was so shocked I realised it was a Jain quote, but I also thought, you know, as readers we actually make the same mistakes that her family and those closest to her make that we underestimate J In for a lot of the novel.

Caily  1:05:03

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's just because, again, Jane placed next to Lizzie, I think we focus on how loud Lizzie's character is and honestly, as much as I love Lizzie a lot of the book I do find her kind of aggressive and abrasive at times. And I think a foil to that is Jane's gentleness and softness. But we have to remember not to be black and white in our own thinking when conceptualising those two characters, Lizzie, we know her as the extrovert we know her as a strong outspoken woman. But just because she's that doesn't mean that Jane always has to be the soft introverted pushover character. They both have grey to them. And so making sure that we, we conceptualise them fully all of the grey area, all of their nuances. And I think what we both discovered, but with a closer deep dive of this novel is that Jane is a stoic and Jane has a steadfastness and a social savviness that can be easily overlooked, but that's definitely there. And that's important to honour.

Izzy Meakin  1:06:15

Yes. Oh my gosh, perfectly to wrap up this episode. I love it so much. I feel like definitely why. But I and obviously guests, yourself and other guests that I've had on try to achieve with these in depth looks at characters is that grey area? You know, what do we not see? So obviously when we when we read the novels, and that's why he just loved doing these episodes so much. But I think that was the perfect way to wrap things up. This has been such a fantastic episode. I've loved it very much. We'll be back with another episode next month. So you'll have to stay tuned for that. But thanks so much, Kaylee, as always, I've loved having you with me today.

Caily  1:06:55

This was amazing. loved doing the character deep dive on Jane. And I'm sure by now you've heard this but if you are looking for me on Instagram ever want to DM me about your thoughts on an episode? My handle is half underscore agony underscore half underscore hope. And yeah, is the and I always love hearing any and all of your thoughts about these episodes.

Izzy Meakin  1:07:21

Thanks so much for listening and janeites If you want to find me outside of the podcast, I'm on Instagram at what the Austen which is where I house all of my Jane Austen themed content and my account Izzy Meakin which is my more kind of general lifestyle account. So I would love to see you over there but for now that's everything from me and I will see you in the next episode.