Episode 45: Cross-Novel Matchmaking Continues, Imagining Romantic Pairings in Jane Austen's Universe

Part 2 is here! I had to split this episode up cause me and Caily can clearly talk for England when it comes to Jane Austen ahah.

Caily is back on the pod and we are taking on the role of the ultimate match makers and pairing up couples from different Jane Austen novels! ranging from power couples like Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Knightley to the quieter pairings like Edward Ferrars and Fanny Price, we hypothesize a gamut of romantic possibilities. Heat up your teapots and ready your crumpets, Austen lovers, because it's time for a literary matchmaking party!
 
 This podcast is about Janeites coming together, discussing Jane Austen's work, and having a few laughs along the way.
 
 We really enjoyed making this episode and we hope you like it!
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 Where can you find Caily?
 Where can you find Caily?
 Instagram: @half_agony_half_hope
 Episode 2: A defence of Colonel Brandon from Sense and Sensibility
 Episode 5: Discussing Jane Austen's most awkward characters  #AwkAustenAug
Episode 7: Jane Austen Villain off 2021 | Wickham v Willoughby with Caily and Ellis
Episode 9: The power of the letter in Jane Austen's work
 Episode 12 & 13: Placing Austen's Heroines into Harry Potter Houses.
Episode 22: Villain 2022 | Caroline Bingley v Isabella Thorpe
 Episode 28: The other Jane | A Jane Bennet Character Study
Episode 37: Unpopular Opinions Pride & Prejudice | 2 Year Podcast Anniversary Ep with Caily

Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:15

Do you want to move on to your next pick?

Speaker 1: 0:21

Full disclosure these last three. I see certain qualities that work, but maybe they're the final three that I'm least confident about. But I'm going to make an argument for Eleanor and Mr Darcy.

Speaker 2: 0:36

Okay, okay, I can see your mind.

Speaker 1: 0:45

You're trying to wrap your mind around it, yeah, okay, so the reason that I see the two of them together is, I think one of the things that Mr Darcy really respects about Elizabeth is her sense of propriety, despite the fact that her family is wackadoodle in a lot of ways. He always talks about how Elizabeth and Jane carry themselves with confidence and poise and they really understand what's socially acceptable to do and not do in society, and I think Eleanor has that same level of social intelligence. I think Eleanor knows how to act with propriety and I think Mr Darcy would really admire that in Eleanor. Yeah, I mean, that's the first thought I have.

Speaker 2: 1:45

Yes, yeah, definitely. Even if you think about the proposal, you're saying all this awful stuff about Elizabeth's family. Then he's like you and your sister I must exclude from this All of this bad stuff but you and your sister are set apart because you guys haven't done this. Yeah, that's definitely something that he holds high, because I think having that sense of propriety is something that manages to bridge the gap between status and wealth.

Speaker 2: 2:16

The fact that Mr Darcy has this status and wealth that is super important to him at this point in the novel, because he is like I'm going against my family's expectations, you're inferior to me. He has all this pride, whereas I think propriety is something that can boost you up Even if you're low standing. If you have a lot of I don't know if the way that you behave in society is really classy that can boost you up massively. It doesn't matter that you're of low standing, because you can still be noticed by people of higher standing. I agree, I think that is as important to have. I mean, you couldn't marry somebody without that. I mean, what a disaster that's got to be really high up there If you're going to marry somebody who's not necessarily as wealthy as you in this day and age like Regency day and age, then I feel like a baseline's got to be the way that you present yourself in society.

Speaker 1: 3:14

I love what you just said about propriety boosting you up, because that's exactly right. I think, at the end of the day, mr Darcy values that more than status. I loved how you just made a distinction between status and propriety. If you think about it, this is why I think he would work with Eleanor too, because Eleanor has such a strong sense of propriety. She's constantly encouraging Mary Ann to act with propriety. She does not have a tolerance for when Lucy or even Mrs Jennings being overly intrusive. She does not have a tolerance for that at all. If you think about it, mr Darcy values Elizabeth above all of the people around him of equal social standing. Lady Catherine de Berg does not have good propriety. She's pretty obnoxious and Mr Darcy notices it, does not like it. Even Caroline Bingley and Mrs Hearst they act holier than now and they don't act with super great propriety, and Mr Darcy sees that. I think, at the end of the day, he would really admire Eleanor's sense of propriety.

Speaker 2: 4:25

What that makes me think is that propriety in class go hand in hand. If you're classy, it doesn't necessarily matter how much money you have. That sets you apart. If you have all the money in the world, if you don't have class, it doesn't matter. The money doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: 4:43

That is so true because I think Lady Catherine de Berg is not classy at all, right? No, oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 4:52

She humiliates her daughter. That's just so awful, just really horrific. She's just all around, she's just like no, she's just not classy at all. But Jane, don't you think Jane is such a symbol of class? She reminds me of Kate Middleton.

Speaker 1: 5:10

You're right. That's exactly right. Kate Middleton does have so much class. You're right that when I think of characters who are classy, I think of the word. They have poise as well. Jane Bennett has poise in class, elizabeth has poise in class and Eleanor has poise in class and Mr Darcy admires that and I think the reason Jane wouldn't be good for him is there is a level with Eleanor and Elizabeth. They have the poise in class and they have this extra level of social intelligence about people. I think Jane is amazing. We love Jane and she's often underestimated and we do think she's more socially intelligent than we think, but she does see the good in people so much that I think Mr Darcy appreciates Eleanor and Elizabeth's ability to cut through the malarkey with toxic people.

Speaker 2: 6:13

Yes, and I truly believe that Jane is an empath and I think Mr Darcy at times can be too hot. I think it would hurt her more that Mr Darcy sometimes can be a little bit too harsh, whereas Mr Bingley is so soft. He himself is, I would say, an empath as well, and I feel like that's why him and Jane can be on the same level. Sometimes it's more painful to see the worst in the world. Sometimes you just really don't need it. You don't need it, you need to just protect your energy. And I feel like Mr Darcy sometimes can kind of lose himself in his kind of shadow tendencies and I feel like you know Elizabeth can handle that because she can call him out on it, but Jane wouldn't be able to.

Speaker 1: 7:02

Everything you just said. I love this shadow tendencies and this is all so spot on. Jane is empathic and she needs someone softer, and Mr Darcy can be kind of abrasive sometimes and I think Elizabeth would handle that well and would take that as a strength that she admires and would want to challenge it. And I think Eleanor is sort of a combination of the two. I don't think she's, as. I think Eleanor has a secret softness that's like Jane's, so it's less than Lizzie, but Eleanor is also not a pushover. Eleanor has a really firm set of values and beliefs and she will stand up for those. I think Mr Darcy would really appreciate that. I think, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:58

Oh gosh, I'm just so. Do you know why I'm struggling with the most? Because when I think about Eleanor, I think about how much she withholds her emotions and I don't think Mr Darcy could stand that. Do you know how urgent Mr Darcy is to know what Elizabeth's feeling? He's not very intuitive when it comes to emotions. He can't sense Elizabeth's feelings. He's like if you could sense Elizabeth's feelings, the first proposal never would have happened. He has to do things like actionable things, where he's like you have to tell them, tell me how you feel in response.

Speaker 2: 8:33

Whereas somebody like Bingley or someone like Mr Knightley would recognize like this person hates me, I need to do the work before I propose, whereas Mr Darcy can't see that. And I feel like Eleanor keeps her cards so close to her chest. I don't think Mr Darcy would ever know what she was thinking at all. Do you know what I mean? That's the only thing that with them that I'd be like he would have to ask her, and Eleanor is so proper that I don't think, unless she knew for sure, it was the right thing to do. I think she'd tell Mr Darcy like what would be a scenario that Mr Darcy blurt out Like you've got to tell me how you feel, because this is how I feel that Eleanor would be like okay, I'll tell you how I feel, like everything has to be resolved for Eleanor before she even tells Edward Like he has to be, like it's fine, lucy's married somebody else, I love you, it's all good. And then she's like oh God. Finally I can like express my emotions.

Speaker 1: 9:25

So everything you're saying, I initially had put them together and I thought about this and I was like, ooh, it wouldn't work because of this.

Speaker 1: 9:35

And I mean, when it comes down to it, I was like, okay, I see them aligning in so many ways, but where's the passion that initially worried me. One thing I quickly wanted to say about how they align is I think they both have before I get to that is they both have this sense of responsibility and practically knowing what to do. That's right, Like Eleanor knows practically hey, Marianne and mom, you're out to lunch, that we can live in a big house. We have to downsize, we have to live in this little cottage. Mr Darcy is very responsible about the finances. He tries to do right by Wickham, but then when Wickham comes back and asks for more money, he thinks that very personally and he's like I do not appreciate that. So they both are very practical and responsible in a way that I think they didn't admire in one another, even though they do have such different like home lives and status. I think they would admire that quality in each other.

Speaker 2: 10:40

So yeah, oh, my God, I love that so much and also that responsibility to younger siblings. I think that that is something that you have to have that bond over. Yes, I love that so much. I think it's difficult. This is something that I always kind of like with Brandon the fact that he has such like a term I don't know what I was trying to say he has like such a dodgy relationship with his brother that I think that he, just because he's good nature, he accepts like the sibling relationship between Marianne and Eleanor and he embraces that. He's friends of Eleanor, so that works.

Speaker 2: 11:16

But I do think there is something to be said about Eleanor's the responsibility that they have for younger siblings, which I don't think Lizzie has really, because Jane takes all that responsibility Like Lizzie's, even like I should have just been open with my siblings. Where it's Elizabeth is very she's slightly selfish, I think is the best way to do it. If she has issues and she wants to say something to a sibling, she just goes to her dad and she's like dad, what do you think about this? If he disagrees with her, then she's just like fine, I'll leave it. She doesn't then go to the siblings and she's like look, this is. This is what's good and what's bad. She doesn't do that. So, yes, I feel like Darcy and Eleanor they are heads of the household and they'd have that in common. I love that, oh my.

Speaker 1: 12:02

God they're running everything. And then, you're right, they're protectors of their younger siblings. They fiercely protect them. And so I want to go back to what you said, which I think is so fair, about Eleanor's potential lack of openness and how Darcy really needs that. And so at first I was like, ooh, that would be a problem. And then my second concern was oh, is there going to be enough passion here?

Speaker 1: 12:26

My argument where I still could see them together is I think that Eleanor actually has a lot of passion and emotion and I think she would speak more directly about how she feels, but she can't with the circumstance that she is in sense and sensibility. There has been so much stress on the family. The father has just died, they don't have any money because John Dashwood is a POS, and the mom and Marianne are so emotional over here that it's like Eleanor naturally. The book even says that she is an emotional person with strong feelings. She's probably here, but she has to act so much the other way because she's the most practical in the family. So I think she's overcompensating, muting her emotions so much in order to make sure that the family is practically taken care of, like Marianne and the mom take up so much space emotionally that it's like Eleanor by default kind of has to be the caretaker and doesn't have very much space for her own emotions.

Speaker 2: 13:38

Yes, yeah, I do 100% get that. But then at the same time I feel like because Darcy has to do that so much as well, neither of them have the space to grow emotionally. Do you know what I mean? They don't have the space to think about how can I handle my emotions? I think that's why Darcy is so impulsive, where he's literally just, with no encouragement whatsoever, he proposes to Elizabeth and he lays it all out on the line. It's just like no, you've had no encouragement to do this. But he's so emotionally closed that he doesn't recognize Elizabeth's complete polar opposite feelings towards them. But also, I don't think he fully recognizes what he's saying is not nice. Do you know what I mean? Like the way he goes about it is so robotic and I feel like that is the difficulty you get to when you take on too much responsibility and you don't make time for self-care and your own emotional work is that you become robotic and you don't recognize other people's emotions.

Speaker 2: 14:45

I think we see that with Eleanor as well. Like how unsympathetic she is to the way that Marianna is and Colonel Brandon's there. Don't expect people to change, because if you ask people to change and you want different things from them. You might regret that later, because the people that you love are the way that they are and if you ask them to change, you may not love them who they are after, and I think that's so important.

Speaker 2: 15:09

I think both Eleanor and Mr Darcy have to recognize that the person that they fall in love with or they love as a sibling, the people that they love, they love for a reason, and you can't expect people to change. I think that's the same with Darcy as well. I think he has to recognize that he loves Elizabeth, all the reasons that he thinks he hates her family. You know, elizabeth isn't that dissimilar to her mom or her dad. She is a byproduct of both of them. Yes, she has more propriety, but she is outspoken and it's that outspokeness that sets her apart that Darcy falls for the fact that she's fiery, the fact that she talks back to him and she's literally just like I'm not going to take any of your BS, I don't care that you're wealthy, you're rude to me and I will literally say my point. And he likes that. He likes that challenge.

Speaker 1: 15:54

I think he does too, and I think I just think, actually, that Elizabeth and Eleanor are more similar than I thought they were, when I really I just think Eleanor is more muted and more robotic because of her situation, like when I go back and reread it.

Speaker 1: 16:15

I want to read you this, this quote, and see what you think about it.

Speaker 1: 16:18

Regarding Eleanor, eldest daughter who's of advice was so effectual, possessed a strength of understanding and a coolness of judgment which qualified her the only 19 to be the counselor of her mother and enabled her frequently to counteract, to the advantage of them all, that eagerness of mind and Mrs Dashwood, which must generally have led to imprudence.

Speaker 1: 16:42

She had an excellent heart, her disposition was affectionate and her feelings were strong, but she knew how to govern them. It's like she, she has all of that spirit that Elizabeth has and you see, in the book she's really direct with people that she doesn't agree with, but it's just like she doesn't have the space to express it because her mom and Marianne are so imprudent, and that's why I'm like I feel like she could play that role in the relationship with Darcy, and I kept thinking too, since they both were the older siblings who weren't able to express their emotions. Maybe they need to be with people who are used to not taking up as a much emotional space so they can practice with each other. So it's not always about someone else's big emotions. Like they both can leave room for each other, I don't know. Oh my God.

Speaker 2: 17:31

Oh my God, therapy session for Eleanor and Darcy. I was thinking, though, they totally pick people that fall in line with other people in their life they've had to look after. Do not think in a sense, like Eleanor picks Edward, and Edward is very similar to Marianne and her mom in a sense that he kind of needs a caretaker.

Speaker 1: 17:57

That is really interesting because when you said that, I was agreeing with you but I did not think you were going to say Marianne and her mother even though that's a good point, like they do need a caretaker I was actually thinking he's more like John Dashwood, not in not morality wise, but with like an indecisiveness like he like sort of like bumbling around, really indecisive.

Speaker 2: 18:22

I think less with Elizabeth and Darcy, but I just thought that with Eleanor like she really leans into what she's used to in Marianne and Edward.

Speaker 1: 18:32

Yeah, she knows how to be the caretaker, but then that's at the expense of her own emotions, so maybe it's good if she's with someone who is also used to being the caretaker.

Speaker 2: 18:45

Yeah, so she has the freedom to express herself. Oh my gosh, we're totally shifting Eleanor and Mr Darcy now. So her emotional well being okay, she needs to be with somebody who can give her the space for self care, because I think Edward is too needy, I think he would be too needy.

Speaker 1: 19:05

I think I see her, yeah, I see her caretaking to him a lot, which.

Speaker 2: 19:10

I think she leans into her savior complex and I think he back like that is for him as well, in the same way, like she leans into her savior complex for her mom and her sister, like she has to be the one to step up In the same for Edward as well. I think, like I know he comes back, he comes back in for a poses, but he only comes back in for a poses, but it's not even like he really does, because he's just like everybody still doesn't know what's going on. It's just, it's not. Like he turns up and he's like Eleanor, I've chosen you above everyone. He turns up and he's like oh, did you not know the news?

Speaker 2: 19:40

Lucy's married my brother. Like, eleanor, I love you. And it's like. And then Eleanor like loses her absolute shiz and it's like you know, this isn't a Wentworth Darcy situation. It's like I have chosen none, but you Like this is, this is very important to me. Like I will, I will disappear at risk that I should have to marry somebody else because I only want you. Edward's like this is fortunate, very unlikely scenario, but she chose my brother, so I'm free.

Speaker 1: 20:15

It is so awkward when they think and how is Mr Farers, mrs Farers, my mother's doing fine and he's like so true.

Speaker 2: 20:28

Oh my gosh Eleanor could have. Yeah, maybe we should ship her a Mr Darcy. Like she could have much more space for self care with him than she could with Edward.

Speaker 1: 20:39

And like again, I see people disagreeing with this, but I really I really like to make the argument because I think about this. When I think about the characters separately, not even together I do think that Eleanor and Mr Darcy, the defense mechanism and their environment has sort of shaped them to come across more robotic, but underneath it all they're both softer, like sometimes I'm like Elizabeth, you're the one taking yourself so seriously, and after a while Mr Darcy is kind of laughing and poking fun, like he's not as like serious and robotic as you're portraying him to be Like. Of course he has his moments, but I think he is softer in a sense. And then Eleanor is too. When you, when you you see how much pain she is and you you hear her internal monologue and then her internal dialogue, I should say. And also it's just a testament to, even though Edward bumbles around with his proposal and it's like not the most heroic she does have, she does get so overcome with emotion that you just see how much she's been containing for so long.

Speaker 2: 21:47

Yeah, and something that I put on my list that I think does align more with Eleanor, being the right choices. I put reasons down why Darcy wouldn't work with Marianne, and one of the reasons is Marianne would need so much attention from a partner that Darcy would not be able to give Like that would drive him up the wall, whereas Eleanor's more self-sufficient and so I think they'd be a better match because of that. I think that's why Brandon's such a good pick for Marianne, because Brandon would like hand, like he would, just for note for Marianne and for her that's probably exactly what she wants from a partner, but that's not something that Darcy could give. So I do see Eleanor's more self-sufficient and Darcy needs somebody who can just, you know, do the right thing. Like he can't be there 24, seven for them.

Speaker 1: 22:33

Yeah, I completely agree with that. Oh my gosh, I was laughing, imagining Mr Darcy and Marianne together, because he would get so annoyed with Marianne's impulsivity and like when she was headstrong and like wasn't acting with propriety, I would say, even though he'd probably appreciate her tastes in books and music and all of that. Yeah, I do not see Marianne and Mr Darcy doing very well together.

Speaker 2: 22:59

No, absolutely not.

Speaker 1: 23:02

Another pairing. I have Jane Bennett and Edmund Bertram Okay, and I see this one being an unpopular opinion. I think I don't want to make sweeping statements, but I think sometimes I know some people who get frustrated with Edmund, and it's like Jane is this angelic saint, hear me out, though. So I think both Jane and Edmund are very morally conscious people. They value what's right. Jane is, I value, the morally right thing to do, and Edmund, even though he kind of gets off track and, I would argue, fly by the wind, a little bit like Bingley, he knows the right thing to do but he gets distracted by the shiny object right Like Bingley, gets distracted, gets manipulated by his sister and Darcy and moves to London. Edmund gets distracted by Mary Crawford and other people. But at the end of the day, they do value what's right, and so that was one thing. I think they also have a really strong sense of duty to family. I see it was really hard for Jane to leave her family. You said that, jane and Bingley. It took them a long time to leave, mrs Bennett, and I think Edmund, as much as he gets frustrated with his family, he has a very, very strong sense of duty to them.

Speaker 1: 24:42

I can see Jane and Edmund both wanting to maintain really strong connections with family. I think they both prioritize kindness. I know Edmund has his flaws and I will acknowledge those too. But one thing I really liked about him, especially at the beginning of the book, is how the family is really treating Fanny like a second-class citizen and not being very nice to her, and Edmund, from day one, really shows her kindness and treats her like a human and an equal, and Fanny picks up on that right away. So I do think there's a sweetness to Edmund sometimes and Jane obviously is so kind to everyone, above and beyond sweet and kind. I also just think too. I think Jane would be supportive. I can see Jane being with a clergyman. I can see her supporting his endeavors and just having a lot of patience with him. And yeah, that was kind of what I saw.

Speaker 2: 25:50

Yeah, I mean, I think all of those are really good points and I think we have to be clear that Edmund is drawn to a good-looking woman and Jane is clearly that. So, yeah, I think my only thing would be that obviously Edmund is drawn to Mary Crawford for a reason and I think that's because he has these dark tendencies. I think everybody in Mansfield Park has these dark tendencies. But I think the point is, I think he's drawn to Mary Crawford for a reason. I know that he makes out like it's because she like rubs in the wrong way, because she says she says all these things he's really drawn to. That. That's really, like you know, gets him going.

Speaker 2: 26:39

And Fanny doesn't have that at all in Neva. Just, jane, do you know what I mean? They don't have that fiery, like sexy side to them where they're just like this mysterious woman who will say anything that she wants and that she's, like you know, will tease me, and we can have like this back and forth banter and blah, blah, blah and it's like I think the same way that Edmund kind of saddles for Fanny is, I think he would make the same choice for Jane, because I think he chooses Fanny out of what he thinks is the right choice to make, as opposed to what his natural choice would be. You know what I mean. Like I don't think he accepts who he is as a person, and who he is as a person is somebody who would choose Mary Crawford Like that is the point that is the person that he falls in love with.

Speaker 2: 27:22

Well, that there's a reason for that. Do you always tell me about points that I put for Edmund on impairing with anybody? I put Are you ready for this? I don't think he should get anyone. I think he is pretty mean. He honestly gives me such villain vibes he can have Isabella Thorpe.

Speaker 1: 27:41

Oh my gosh Wow.

Speaker 2: 27:45

I do think he deserves Fanny. I don't think he deserves Jane. I don't think he deserves anyone. I genuinely think he's a bad. I don't think he deserves Mary if I'm being perfectly honest, I don't have anything against Mary whatsoever. I think Edmund is honestly the worst. I genuinely can't stand the guy. I really can't. He just he's so hypocritical. I don't think he's very nice. I think, yes, he does stand up for Fanny, but the way that he does it is in such a way that is not supportive of Fanny, like he makes such a show of it and that just really bothers. And that is something that would bother Jane. Like Jane would not want somebody who makes a massive fuss. And Edmund is like what are you doing to Fanny? He makes a fuss about it, whereas Bingley would never do that. Bingley, like Jane, is very poised in society, is very respectful and polite. Edmund is not polite. He calls people out in public and just says his mind and his thoughts on things, even if it embarrasses people.

Speaker 1: 28:43

This is so funny.

Speaker 2: 28:44

You had.

Speaker 1: 28:46

I really wanted. Oh my God, here we go again.

Speaker 2: 28:47

My strong feelings on Edmund are funny. I'm so sorry guys. I can't help myself.

Speaker 1: 28:53

It's very funny because one of my best friends, lily, she also cannot stand Edmund and while I understand some of the chagrin with Edmund, I don't feel as strongly that he's a villain. But okay, I'm trying to think about this.

Speaker 2: 29:11

Okay, would you pick Edmund, though, like can you give me reasons that you personally would pick Edmund Okay?

Speaker 1: 29:18

Oh, like when I pick him out of all of the options, out of any men would you pick? I wouldn't. There's one of the adaptations of Mansfield Park. They portray him in a, I would say, a more positive light and I like that version of Edmund. Actually I would not choose him. My man's, mr Knightley for sure, through and through. And I also like Captain Wentworth. No, I okay.

Speaker 1: 29:47

So my reaction to what you just said is I think the difference that we have to take into consideration is Jane is the bell of the ball in the countryside, right? No one says a bad word about her. She's on a pedestal, whereas Fanny is actively treated like she doesn't exist or like she's a servant. So part of me wonders, you know, like if Jane were in that position, part of me likes that Edmund gets angry by the way that they treat Fanny. I don't see it as showiness.

Speaker 1: 30:23

That being said, I think of all of the Jane Austen novels I enjoy Mansfield Park the least, so I re-read it the least amount of time. So I think I need to go back and reread and see some of the nuances of Edmund's character, because I don't see him as a villain. I'm like, oh my gosh, isabella Thorpe is the literal worst. I would love to see her and Wickham together. I think they're like on an equal playing field.

Speaker 1: 30:52

Yeah, I don't see Edmund as that bad and I guess the other way I viewed Edmund is I think I liked his sweetness at the beginning. I guess in my mind I was like, okay, he actually is in love with Fanny and he does authentically value who she is. I think it's a combination of growing up with her and the constant messaging that she could never even be an option to be his equal or to be. It was more like a sister brother relationship at first and then it's like I think he's. I just think of him as sort of going through this immature adolescent phase where he's like, oh, I'm intrigued by Mary Crawford, but end of the day, morley, fanny sits better with me.

Speaker 2: 31:39

Seeing her face. But I know, but I'm just like, had Mary Crawford, that had Mariah not run off with Henry, maybe Edmund still would have gone for Mary. Like, where is there an instant that he chooses Fanny over Mary when Mary's in a prime? There was never an instance. If Mary is the, when Mary is in her like peak, he would never have chosen Fanny over her. The only time he chooses Fanny is when Mary falls off her pedestal. And for me I'm like no friends. No, do you know what I mean? Fanny was steadfast. She was always the same person. Now, either you saw her qualities all the way through and that was somebody that you could fall in love with, or, alternatively, that's somebody that you just love in a sisterly way and when you're disappointed with Mary, you just decide that she's the person that you'll marry instead. And I don't think that's good enough for Fanny and I'm not even a big fan of Fanny and I don't think that's good enough for her.

Speaker 1: 32:42

Yeah, that's okay. I see what you're saying about if they're both in their prime and they're both the best versions of themselves.

Speaker 2: 32:51

He still would have picked Mary.

Speaker 1: 32:52

Would have picked Mary, I guess. The issue, though, is yeah, mary is. Mary is a lot more gregarious and fun and spirited, but she does a lot of morally ambiguous things, and it's the first time he sees it. But the first time he sees it, he's has such an adverse reaction to it that I'm like I think but Mary, just a lie.

Speaker 2: 33:20

Mary is honest all the way through. She says all the way through that she is not interested in marrying somebody in the clergy. She does not want to kneel on a cold floor. She says that she's happy to do the play. She talks about her uncle, who had the fair, openly and says that she doesn't think it's acceptable. She's honest about the fact that her brother's a flirt. Mary does not lie about her character. She's not deceiving anybody. She is true to who she is all the way through. It is Edmund who tries to brush that aside every single time to try and see the best of Mary. Mary doesn't lie about who she is. I don't think personally. She is who she is all the way through.

Speaker 1: 33:59

Now, if Edmund tries to pretend she's here I think you're right about that she doesn't lie about who she is, and I think Edmund is in denial about certain things that don't sit well with him. So that's on him, but those things are still there and then I just think it comes to a head where he's like oh you don't care about my brother's life, like you care more about your own self-interest, and that doesn't sit well with me. I just think it's-. I don't think she's a villain. I think people, like really vilify her and I actually am kind of intrigued by her and she has more main character energy than Fanny does. But I do think she has this self-interested component to her that just doesn't fit with Edmund's values, which are family first, and I just think they would the more they got to know each other, there would be cracks and they wouldn't have aligned values and he'd be really off put by her.

Speaker 2: 34:57

Yeah, I think if I saw more of his effect like I know that he's kind towards Fanny, but there's no there's not the same passion that he has towards Mary, I think if I saw elements of that throughout the book before the end, then I'd feel differently. But it's literally the guy does 180. He's all about Mary until he's not anymore, and then suddenly he's all about Fanny and like couple pages before the end he's still calling a sister and then next thing he wants to marry her in. For me I'm just like that is just not acceptable, friends, just not acceptable, and so I can't he cannot have Jane. Jane's too good, jane's too good for him.

Speaker 1: 35:39

I think Jane is out of his league. I'm not saying that like I don't think this is a perfect match. I like this is kind of if I had to match everyone. This is lower down. But when you said that about him being so much more passionate about Mary, sometimes the people that we're most passionate about aren't the best for us long-term. Like I was actually thinking about Mary Ann's so much more passionate about Willoughby. But Colonel Brandon is the steadier, better fit, even though he probably doesn't fulfill her in the most passionate way as Willoughby did I actually that was the comparison I was just thinking when you said that.

Speaker 2: 36:19

I love that. That's a fabulous comparison. I really like that. Actually, that's such a good point. Like we would want Mary Ann to be with Colonel Brandon over Willoughby because he is the healthier choice, and I think that's the same for Edmund. And Mary, like Fanny, is the healthier choice. She will bring out the best parts of Edmund hidden deep. She will bring out those better parts of Edmund than Mary ever could. Mary would just bring out Edmund's worst characteristics, I think.

Speaker 1: 36:47

Yeah, I think so too, even though don't get me wrong I, you know, one of my best friends is like. I love Mary Crawford's character. I love how bold she is, like she. There are so many things about her character I like better than Fanny. But when it comes to Edmund's personality, I think he and Mary would get a divorce in two seconds, whereas I see him and Fanny lasting.

Speaker 1: 37:11

Even though I agree with you, and I think a lot of listeners will think this as well, I don't think he treated Fanny the way he should have throughout the novel, like he did not. He had moments of really failing Fanny, but I also thought he had moments of constantly coming back and being like really appreciating her, like I can't stop thinking about the play where he was disappointed with everyone and the father was really upset. They did the play and Edmund, with a lot of admiration, is just like Fanny was the only one who did what's right, like Fanny stayed constant, you know, like she was the one who you know we should have listened to Fanny. So I do think there are these small moments throughout the novel.

Speaker 2: 37:55

He says that, though, but then doesn't do anything actionable himself. He's like we should all listen to Fanny, but I'm going to carry on being just a terrible person. Do you know what I mean? Like he doesn't take on board, or Fanny's too. He's just like Fanny's so right, I'll carry on doing my own thing with Mary. He's like he's like all on board for the play to be canceled, and Fanny's like oh my gosh, edmund, yeah, we're on the same page. And then it's like you have a make-out scene with Mary, and he's like screw my morals, I want to make out with Fanny, make out with Mary. Like that is like his choice. Do you know what I'm saying? Like he has these tendencies. When it comes down to it, he chooses his vices over the moral high ground in. I just think Fanny deserves best. I think Fanny deserves true love in Edmund's. In my eyes, edmund is not true love for Fanny.

Speaker 1: 38:46

This is interesting too, because I agree with you that Edmund is not fully but he's temporarily fickle but then comes back to Fanny. But I think this is interesting because I'm curious what your love language is. My love language is words of affirmation. So the moments in the book where he's telling Fanny how lovely she is and tells her all of the things about her character she admires, I wonder if I hold a lot of weight to those. But you're right, he doesn't follow through with action till the end of the novel. So I can see that being frustrated, that it's frustrating that he's saying one thing and then turning around and chasing after Mary Crawford again.

Speaker 2: 39:25

Okay, it's interesting to see that I have a pretty sure mind's words of affirmation Mind's words of affirmation and physical touch, I think. But the words that he says for me, I'm just like. I don't know, I'm a. There's something very significantly different between Wemmuss words at the end of the novel and Edmunds words. There's deep, burning, passionate love and then there's feeling like you're somebody's plan B and I just I don't think you should ever be somebody's plan B. Okay, like, they need to take their time to figure out what they want. You can't just be like, oh, I was so in love with this person but that didn't work out and they didn't turn out to be the person I want to be. So I'll go with you because you're here, you're available and you love me. That is just for me. I'm sorry, that's just unacceptable. Like, even if you are gonna choose me, take the time on your own to come to that conclusion. Don't just be like three pages before the end and be like, actually, it was you all along. Was it really was it?

Speaker 1: 40:29

I understand that point. I think the only reason I have a little bit more leeway for it in this particular scenario is because they were raised together as like kind of sibling, like a brother sister dynamic, and there was this emphasis that they were different classes and she was in this. So I sort of have a little more forgiveness, being like, okay, he probably was in denial and did need a little bit more time to get there and obviously didn't treat her super great at certain points. That's not how I would want someone to treat me and I think he probably just needed more time to recognize that he loved her. But I understand that that would not be your first choice and it'll have someone who would romantically treat you, or is it not?

Speaker 2: 41:20

I know we can stick on this conversation forever. Honestly this is my point of contention with Jane Austen is Edmund Like. I used to think he was funny and don't get me wrong, I do have a couple of like poems with funny, but I actually think my biggest problem is with Edmund Like. I think he is the biggest problem Like. I feel like I fall into the trap at times of villainizing funny when actually I think realistically, like is funny, a villain, or can we look at the ways in which Edmund antagonizes funny to make her a villain at times? And the same with Mary. Mary is totally villainized, but is it that Mary's a villain or is it that Edmund antagonizes Mary to make her a villain?

Speaker 1: 42:07

I need to go back and reread Mansfield Park and real, because I do think I know.

Speaker 2: 42:12

I tend when.

Speaker 1: 42:14

I. I tend to read giving the protagonist the benefit of the doubt, so I need to go back and be open to this new perspective on Edmund. Just bringing it back really quickly to Jane and Edmund, I guess the other thing that I saw I actually see a weird I feel you're totally going to disagree with this and this is totally okay I see a weird similarity between Edmund and Bingley in that they're both. I really argue that Edmund is very sweet at the beginning of the novel. He has a sweetness that Mr Bingley has but that Jane would be attracted to. But then they both, they both are fickle at times, like they both get like distracted, they both get like off course, thrown off course, but then they come back. So I could see I don't know Jane maybe putting up with that the way she put up with it with Bingley.

Speaker 2: 43:09

That's true. That's true, it's okay.

Speaker 1: 43:12

You totally don't have to agree with me.

Speaker 2: 43:14

No, no, I do think. I do think that's true, because Jane is under the assumption that Bingley goes off to be with Miss Darcy. And so I think, yeah, like for Jane, she's willing to be, like I want Bingley to be happy, even if it's not with me, because Jane's just pure of heart, like that and, yeah, I think that she would be willing to put up with more. I think Jane has more conviction, though that she just wouldn't. If she'd seen all of that going on, like Fanny does, I think Jane would have, jane would have more conviction. I think she'd be like no and like, even if Jane didn't, can you imagine Mrs Bennett seeing all of that going on and then he comes back for Jane? She'd be like tell us to the no, elizabeth. Can you imagine, elizabeth, don't you come near my sister again, you crazy person? Like, absolutely not.

Speaker 1: 44:07

Yeah, I can see Elizabeth having a real problem witnessing that dynamic. Okay, I'm playing with not shipping admin, kind of like you know. I think that there is, let's not ship them. I think if it was one of those things where it was like if I had to put them with another person, I put them together.

Speaker 2: 44:27

Who could it be? Yeah?

Speaker 1: 44:30

I don't think that they're soul mates and should live happily ever after.

Speaker 2: 44:34

Yeah, I think Edmund's such a hard one to buy into because we see him fall in love with one type of person and then he chooses an entirely different type of person to marry, and so it's difficult to understand who he actually is inclined towards. You know, we can go back and forth and I think both of those people mirror different parts of him. He's one type of person with one person and he's a different type of person with another. He needs to do his own self work. That's why I'm saying Edmund should be on his own or with somebody, like I know I said Isabella thought, but in reality I actually just think Edmund needs time on his own, he needs to do self work. Okay, he needs to figure out himself before he gets into a relationship. So Edmund, for my pick, would be on his own.

Speaker 1: 45:17

Tell him to come see me. I'll take him on as a new therapy client.

Speaker 2: 45:22

Edmund needs to be with Kaylee as a client, so, alright, it's so funny.

Speaker 1: 45:27

It's a work on personal identity work yeah.

Speaker 2: 45:32

Okay, I know I still love it though and I do agree. I feel like I can't think of anybody else to power him with. And I do agree with some of the points that you made, especially the family dynamic. Equity to family is so important to Jane and important to Edmund, and I think that's something that you have to rely on and I think if you differ on that, it's very difficult. I don't see a couple that we experience that with who differ on that value. To be perfectly honest with you, I'd say the people that are least connected to their families probably Henry, tilney and Catherine, but because they're equally distant from their family like I know Catherine's not they've not got a toxicity with their family and you know Henry's close with their sister, but I'd say they're the most distant from their family Because they're both in that stance. It doesn't impact, but everybody else seems to have quite a close connection to their family and I feel like that is something you've got to rely on.

Speaker 1: 46:29

That's so true. I was about to say Anne isn't either. But that's just emotionally, you're right, like practically she is, you know. Anyway, that's a whole other topic. But yeah, anne is close to her family the way everyone else is. Proximity wise.

Speaker 2: 46:45

Yeah, yeah, and I feel that's the same with, like Wemworth as well. He comes back to his family. He's not necessarily connected to them on an emotional level, but you know he still like comes back after the Navy and they're all in the Navy as well and you know, I don't know. Yeah, like you said, that's like a whole different topic, but I'd love to hear what your path, your final pick is.

Speaker 1: 47:04

Okay, final pick this. This one's interesting. I actually had. I had the most difficult time putting Colonel Brandon with someone else, even though you know, if you listen to episode two of the podcast we is. He and I both really respect Colonel Brandon and we think that the movie adaptations portray him as the sort of this elderly, old you know, elderly man. They don't give him enough credit, like we think Colonel Brandon's a catch and I really had a hard time pairing him with someone else and so at the end of the day, I landed on Colonel Brandon and Anne Elliot.

Speaker 2: 47:49

Yeah, that's only much I can think of as well.

Speaker 1: 47:53

Yeah, I think Anne has this level of stoicism and thoughtfulness and patience and I think he has that too, and so I think they they would not be the fiery, super passionate couple. I think they'd be sort of a measured, stoic couple with a mutual respect. I think that she, she would admire his character, his loyalty, the way he shows up for the people he loves. They, they both have this duty to the people around them, to they both. They both are caretakers and it's another example of if you put two caretakers together, maybe they can have space for both of them to emotionally open up, instead of having one person take up all the emotional space and the other person caretake. So I like that they both have that caretaking ability, so it can be sort of an even relationship.

Speaker 1: 48:50

I think also Anne and Colonel Brandon both have this level of it's like a softness and sophistication. They're very empathetic and they're very sophisticated. I see them having common interests. Like I know a lot of people can't imagine Marianne and Colonel Brandon together, but I think one thing that they really connect on is this love of music and literature, and Anne also plays the piano, just like Marianne and Anne, doesn't she talk to Captain Benick about literature, poetry, and Colonel Brandon admires those things too. So I really think I can see them having this very stoic intellectual relationship and with a sweet like emotional openness.

Speaker 2: 49:47

Yes, I love the two of them together. Actually, like you said, it wouldn't be like this passionate, fiery relationship, but something that they do have in common is they both love forever. You know, once they fall in love with people, it is that's it. You know with Brandon as well, like he falls in love with the person that actually marries his brother and he loves her until she dies. He looks after her when she's sick, he goes and finds her when he comes back from the war and he obviously recognizes all those qualities of Marianne, which is why he falls so deeply in love with her as well. But Anne and Brandon are very steadfast in their feelings and I think that's so important. Yes, it's not passionate, but it's deep, it's really deep and I think they'd find that in each other and also they don't need kind of validation from other people when it comes to love.

Speaker 2: 50:37

I think something that Wentworth definitely needs like the reason he goes for a Louisa, I think is he needs. I think he has a lot of insecurities and the weasel eases those for him. Like he thinks, like I think, like he thinks he's a catch, but deep down, like his internal thing, he has insecurities where he's like am I a catch like actually the and turn me down for a reason, and I think Louisa being like oh my gosh, captain Wentworth, he's like that just eases my ego in this, like at least I know I could get anybody that I want, like I think he does have insecurities, whereas Anne and Brandon are so sure in themselves that they wouldn't need that validation yes, all that's such a good point.

Speaker 1: 51:17

And in Colonel Brandon, both have this quiet devotion where you're exactly right. They choose their person and they are eternally, deeply devoted to them in this very intense way, but it's so intense that it doesn't necessarily, it's just there, it doesn't need to be spoken like, they're not going to be the person who are constantly reassuring their partner with words. I think it's just there and you're right. I think captain Wentworth needs a lot of the reassurance via words and I'm actually I'm thinking about it too. Mary Ann likes that too. Again, mary Ann and Wentworth put them together.

Speaker 1: 51:57

My feet, my and this is funny, we're bringing this up because my fear initially with Anne and Colonel Brandon was I was like what's missing is that fire. Like you notice that they both end up with really passionate, fiery people. Wentworth has so much passion, mary Ann has so much passion and they admire that and and Colonel Brandon admire that. But I see I see it working without that fire. I see there. But Anne and Colonel Brandon are also passionate. It's just in this quieter way, it's in this, it's in this way that just exists, without having to be spoken.

Speaker 2: 52:38

It's really shown through action yeah, and I think sometimes it is valuable to have those like conflicting elements in a sense. You know, like if you've got kind of like I don't know, like fire and water or air and water or have you, sometimes it is worth having that, that conflict. But that's not always the case, like you don't necessarily need that. You can have fulfilling relationships with people who are the same as you. You know it doesn't. You don't have to, you don't have to have this like clash and I think there will be something peaceful about Ann and Brandon's relationship and both of them are older, like they've grown up, and so maybe they'd won that maturity, they'd won that stability that the two of them would just naturally offer each other. There isn't the question where is when with this. The question with Marianna is the question that there is that risk of instability with both of those, whereas Ann and Brenton wouldn't have thought it would be easy.

Speaker 1: 53:42

It would. It would exactly, it would be peaceful, it would be, it would just be there. And Ann and Colonel Brandon, I think, also are really good about picking up on nuances, on small details, Like when Marianne's initially playing the piano. There's this whole section where she's really frustrated because everyone is talking over her playing and Colonel Brandon is just quietly attuning to her, paying attention. And there's this part of the novel where Marianne appreciates that he just I can't remember how it's said, but like graces her with his quiet attention. And I think Ann has that same quality. She's always observing all of the dynamics quietly that are happening at the dinner table. Ann is everyone's confidant because she has that calming presence that Colonel Brandon has. And how amazing would it be that they could both bring that energy together and then maybe other parts of their personality would have space to come out.

Speaker 2: 54:45

Oh my God, I just had a realization that Ann and Brandon together, would that not just be Mr and Mrs Garden or energy, and I would totally be here for that.

Speaker 1: 54:56

Oh my gosh, absolutely. Mrs Gardner is such a therapeutic observant, sort of understated. She's someone you trust.

Speaker 2: 55:07

And then Miss yeah, oh my God, mr Garden is so paternal, so caring, but also doesn't get involved in the detail. And that's so, brandon, like he observes from a distance, he's there to be supportive but doesn't get like bogged down in like the gossip or the details of things, and that's so, mr God, oh my God.

Speaker 1: 55:24

That's genius. Did you just think of that on the spot, yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:27

I was just when you were just saying that, I was literally just like oh my God, do you know who they remind me of, mr and Mrs Gardner? And I was like wow, that is, that is them.

Speaker 1: 55:37

I love that. I can totally see Ann as she ages, showing up in the way that Mrs Gardner does, as this mentor and confidant. And you're right, mr Gardner's so paternal and humble, oh, I love that so much. You're a genius.

Speaker 2: 55:55

Oh my God, if I can do anything in life, it's making nuance. Jane Austen links. What can I say?

Speaker 1: 56:03

I'm right there with you.

Speaker 2: 56:07

Oh, my God, I love that, though Do you want to hear a couple of my wild cards before we wrap up? Absolutely Okay, I have three wild cards. One of them is Nightly and Wentworth. I feel like Nightly has all the maturity, all the stability that Wentworth doesn't have, and I feel like Wentworth has all the fire that Mr Nightly likes, and I feel like together they would be quite a good combo. As you know, I am totally shipping Mr Nightly to be queer, but I am Okay, hold on, pardon me, likes this.

Speaker 1: 56:42

And then I was like what is the issue? Maybe, okay, I was about to say they would be a power couple. Is it too much alpha energy, or Ooh?

Speaker 2: 56:54

But then I'm like Nightly has a lot of feminine, like divine feminine energy, I think as well.

Speaker 1: 57:03

I think that's right, because I'm like, hold on, though. Emma is definitely a type A energy. Okay, I see it, because Wentworth and Nightly are both extremely intelligent and passionate and can, like, read the room, but Wentworth, he can get carried away and he needs someone to measure him and bring him back down and, like make sure he's proprietous and calm, and I think Mr Nightly would be really good about that. But then Mr Nightly needs someone who brings out his adventurous side, right? Yes, yeah, I see that.

Speaker 2: 57:45

It's so easy for Mr Nightly to just be like. I feel like Mr Nightly. I don't know when Mr Nightly was born, but he gives me like such cancer vibes, like he's very emotional, very intuitive, but also like, has this ability, like does retreat sometimes into himself. And I'm just like I feel like Wentworth would stop him from retreating too much. Keep him out in society, keep challenging him, bring him out into the outside world a little bit more, bring him out of his shell a little bit. I kind of love that forum but yeah, wentworth needs grounding at the same time. In at least such, because he's such a mentor, he does ground people.

Speaker 1: 58:24

Yeah, the more you're talking about this, I think I was thinking about how Mr Nightly really appreciates Emma's sense of humor and quirkiness and how she brings novelty to life. And I think Wentworth has this strong sense of adventure and passion and like, let's think outside the box and that would be really good to keep Mr Nightly engaged and enthusiastic about life. And then, yeah, mr Nightly would be good about keeping Wentworth measured and balanced and help reign him in when he needs it.

Speaker 2: 59:04

And Nightly so self-sufficient which would be so beneficial for marring somebody who's in the Navy that you've got to be able to be self-sufficient on your own. So I kind of like I can kind of see that forum as well, you know.

Speaker 1: 59:15

Love it.

Speaker 2: 59:16

Anyway, that was my first wild card. My second wild card brings in secondary characters, but I just kind of had to put this out there. Louisa Musgrove in Frank Churchill.

Speaker 1: 59:28

Totally, absolutely Right.

Speaker 2: 59:31

Mm-hmm, I'm literally just like. I know it would be slightly chaotic, but I also feel like for like first love vibes. I mean that would be like a young adult novel. I swear right there.

Speaker 1: 59:45

Absolutely. I don't think they would. I think unless they both really evolved and both became more measured, I don't know if they'd be end game, but I agree with you that they would have like a romantic intrigue similar to Marianne and Willoughby. I think she would love his charisma and his sense of humor and his mischievousness. He would love her spirit. He would love that she was really like outward and direct with her opinions. Yeah, I see that. I see that lightheartedness where they just play off of each other and it'd be a really fun. Yeah, it would be a really fun series to just watch. It's like ooh, it would be like the OC and Marissa and Ryan or something you know.

Speaker 2: 1:00:32

Yeah, like Gossip Girl it would be, like it would be pretty crazy. But oh my gosh, I love that. I'm gonna hear for that. And then the last one that I had was Marianne and Captain Benic, because I feel like they just have all the sensibility together but don't have the crazy of Willoughby. I feel like whoever Captain Benic was meant to be engaged to Captain Harville's sister and whoever his sister was for me, she just screams Marianne.

Speaker 1: 1:01:05

Yeah, I completely okay. What I'm thinking about is I would love to have seen Captain Benic pre-grief process, because we see him when he's really grave, when he's grieving, when he's lower energy and definitely Anne lifts his spirits and then obviously he and Louisa end up together and they sort of measure each other. I would love to see what he's like before he's grieving, because I do. I agree with who he and Marianne. They'd read poetry all day long, they'd like cry over literature, they'd love the arts. But I want Marianne to have someone with like spark and energy too and I'm wondering does Captain Benic have that? He was just really depressed and sad.

Speaker 2: 1:01:57

Yeah do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I do, yeah, 100% get what you're saying. I think he probably did. The reason that he ends up with Louisa is she is muted as well. You know what I mean? Louisa was so spunky, she has so much energy, she's so excited and then she hits her head and it just like she becomes like more monotone. And for him he has a similar experience that obviously he falls in love with this woman and she dies before they're even able to get married and he falls into like deep depression and it changes him forever and I think both of them come together because they're both not who they once were and, for whatever reason, they can't quite get back there, but they can find some sort of common ground with each other. You know what I mean. They can find it a middle ground and I feel like whoever he was with this previous woman must have been someone of more high spirit. And it knocks him like tenfold because he is in a deep grief, depression state when we meet him.

Speaker 1: 1:02:51

And while you were talking about that I just thought, oh, I was thinking of him with beginning of the novel Marianne. But you know Marianne also ends up the stuff with Willoughby is a trauma. It's like Louise's fall in a different sense and so she's a more muted character at the end. And so maybe Marianne post Willoughby and Benick post losing the woman he loves, maybe their sensibilities bring them together and maybe they have this common ground. Yeah, that's interesting. I actually see Marianne and Benick together more post what happens with Willoughby.

Speaker 2: 1:03:34

Okay, yeah, I thought it was never a good one to throw out there, though. Do you have any more on your list, any wild cards?

Speaker 1: 1:03:40

Yeah, I was thinking, I thought that. I thought that, frank, I know you mentioned Frank Churchill I thought Frank Churchill and Catherine Moreland would be kind of funny together. I just, yeah, I thought that she she would really like his vibrant, charismatic energy and you know, he pokes fun, he likes to joke, and I think she would simultaneously be entertained and like affronted, the way that Jean Fairfax is, and I think when Frank Churchill gets a rise out of people he loves it and was like very entertained by that. So I could see I don't know if it would be a healthy dynamic, but I could see his like sort of thinking her naivety it was funny and to make jokes that really shock her and then he loves that he's getting a rise out of her. I don't know, I don't know if they're any. Yeah, that's true, but like, just like a fun, I think they'd have some kind of flirtation.

Speaker 2: 1:04:41

Yeah, yeah, I can see that as well In Henry. For all intents and purposes, just kind of tease Catherine as well. You know he does kind of make fun of her in her naivety, so that's not something that Catherine's clearly opposed to.

Speaker 1: 1:04:54

Yeah, henry and Frank. Yeah, Henry, tony and Frank Churchill have similar personalities, don't they?

Speaker 2: 1:05:01

Yeah, I'd say so. I'd say that Henry, though, is more authentic and honest as opposed to Frank, who's very secretive, not very authentic at times, which I don't think Henry would. I just can't see Henry being like that. Like Henry is very true to himself all the way through and his morals and things. He doesn't get involved with other people's kind of vices or seeing, like what other people are doing that he thinks is wrong. He doesn't get involved with it, like maybe other characters would, but he just recognize when people do things that wrong, like with his brother.

Speaker 2: 1:05:35

You know, like I can understand why some people would find that frustrating. Like he recognizes his brother's doing wrong but just observes it and doesn't do anything about it and just says like this is what my brother's like, it's just how it is, whereas there's a lot of Austin characters who'd be like step right in there and like intervene, but Henry doesn't do that. He just kind of, yeah, just sees bad stuff going on, like Edmund. Edmund would intervene because that's what he does, he like freaking, calls out this stuff, but then he would go and do the same thing himself. And you know not be worried about the hypocrisy when you talk about Edmund. Let's not get back on to Edmund.

Speaker 1: 1:06:16

That's such a good point I think about. Yeah, I think Frank Churchill and Henry Tilney have a similar. I love like poking fun, I love getting a rise out of people, Like they have this sense of humor right and you know Henry loves to get a rise out of Kath, or and Frank loves to try to get a rise out of Jane. But I think you're exactly right that Frank is gonna be inciting the drama and he's gonna be in the drama and he's gonna be a little sneaky and manipulative, Whereas Henry, outside of poking fun at Catherine, Henry observes the drama but doesn't wanna engage with it. He stays out of it in a more mature way. So I think you hit the nail on the head, with Henry being a lot more authentic.

Speaker 2: 1:07:02

Yeah, I kind of love this, though we had so much more to talk about than we ever anticipated. We're here, like this is gonna be a short episode, we've not got much to say, and the next thing you know we're here a few hours in and just like, actually we have lots to say, but it's cool. I really enjoyed this.

Speaker 1: 1:07:19

I think it was so much fun and I love too how you know we had basic ideas coming in, but then I feel like on the fly, on the spot, after hearing each other, we kept coming up with new reasons why people would be a good match or did. It just felt very in the moment, and I love that when that happens.

Speaker 2: 1:07:37

I know this is really just what we're capturing here, guys. This is just mine and Kaylee's just general conversation. We're just capturing it for the podcast so that you can listen in. But yeah, that was fun. I enjoyed that. If you guys enjoyed it, we'd love to hear your thoughts. What cross couples would you match? It would be good to hear. And also if you agreed with any of our picks or if you disagreed, you know, just let us know. Hit us up on Instagram, Obviously in the comments section, if you're watching on YouTube and, like I said, on Spotify they have this Q&A section. So I will set up some kind of Q&A sections based off the particular matches that we made. But this was so much fun I feel like. Are you happy for us to wrap it up there?

Speaker 1: 1:08:16

That sounds perfect. Yeah, I think it's perfect.

Speaker 2: 1:08:20

I've got to sleep and Kaylee's got to get on with her day.

Speaker 1: 1:08:25

What time is it there?

Speaker 2: 1:08:27

It's okay, it's like half night, but that is actually my bedtime. I do tend to go to bed around now.

Speaker 1: 1:08:33

Oh, my gosh. Well, thanks for dealing with me and the time difference. I know I love it, though. I love it. This is really good, I think. Yeah, this was absolutely a blast to do.

Speaker 2: 1:08:46

I think so as well. Do you want to let people know where they can find you outside of the podcast? I'll obviously link all of our other episodes down below as well, so people can tune into those.

Speaker 1: 1:08:56

Yeah, absolutely so. My Instagram handle is half underscore agony underscore, half underscore hope, like the persuasion love letter. Yeah, you can DM me anytime. I would love to hear your thoughts and I also check the comments on the YouTube channel, so would love to engage in some dialogue there. But thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 2: 1:09:24

Yes, I love it and, as always, guys, you can find me on Instagram. I'm with the Austin, I share all updates on the podcast over there and if you want to join the Patreon the JNight tribe I will add the link to that below as well. We are starting a book club there soon. I'm just figuring out all the little details of it first, but that will get going, which will be really fun. So, yeah, make sure that you check that out and you can kind of support the podcast financially and just get some extra content as well, which people are always up for. So, yeah, that is everything from us today and we will see you in another episode ["Pomp and Circumstance"].