Hello, Janeites! Pour yourself a hot drink or glass of wine, and settle in for an enlightening conversation on our favourite Austen characters, their intriguing relationships, and the societal pressures they endure. Caily back for this year-end episode, where we reflect on the past year's discussions, the challenges we faced, and the wisdom we gained along the way.
From the manipulative Lucy Steele in "Sense and Sensibility" to the controversial Lydia from "Pride and Prejudice," we dissect the multi-faceted personalities of Austen's world. We explore the complex dynamics of Edmund and Fanny's relationship in "Mansfield Park" and the role Lydia played in Lizzie and Darcy's love story. We stress the significance of 'girl code', supportive female friendships, and the importance of self-care for us modern-day Janeites.
As we look ahead, an exciting new year awaits us with more in-depth character studies, the expansion of our book club, and the growth of our Patreon community. With gratitude in our hearts for each of you, we are thrilled to continue this Janeite journey, engaging in profound discussions about the timeless world of Austen. Let's raise our teacups to another year of Austen adventures, and let the conversation flow!
Mentions:
Melodie illustrator (Cover Art)
The Woman's Guide to Girl Code | Spot a Friend or Foe
Where can you find your host (Izzy)?
Website: www.whattheausten.com
Podcast Instagram: @whattheausten
Personal Instagram: @izzy_meakin
Youtube: What the Austen? Podcast
Hello, Janeites! Pour yourself a hot drink or glass of wine, and settle in for an enlightening conversation on our favourite Austen characters, their intriguing relationships, and the societal pressures they endure. Caily back for this year-end episode, where we reflect on the past year's discussions, the challenges we faced, and the wisdom we gained along the way.
From the manipulative Lucy Steele in "Sense and Sensibility" to the controversial Lydia from "Pride and Prejudice," we dissect the multi-faceted personalities of Austen's world. We explore the complex dynamics of Edmund and Fanny's relationship in "Mansfield Park" and the role Lydia played in Lizzie and Darcy's love story. We stress the significance of 'girl code', supportive female friendships, and the importance of self-care for us modern-day Janeites.
As we look ahead, an exciting new year awaits us with more in-depth character studies, the expansion of our book club, and the growth of our Patreon community. With gratitude in our hearts for each of you, we are thrilled to continue this Janeite journey, engaging in profound discussions about the timeless world of Austen. Let's raise our teacups to another year of Austen adventures, and let the conversation flow!
Mentions:
Melodie illustrator (Cover Art)
The Woman's Guide to Girl Code | Spot a Friend or Foe
Where can you find your host (Izzy)?
Website: www.whattheausten.com
Podcast Instagram: @whattheausten
Personal Instagram: @izzy_meakin
Youtube: What the Austen? Podcast
Yeah, hi Janeites, and welcome back to the what, the Austin podcast. This is the final episode of the year. I think we've only done one before this right of wrapping up. Yeah, so this is our second wrap up episode ever, which is so fun. We always think this is quite good just to jump on and chat about everything that's gone on throughout the year, what you've heard or seen and what you haven't, what's going to come next year, what we've enjoyed and obviously I'm on every single episode, but Kaylie, as a guest, isn't on them all. So it's good to chat about the topics that Kaylie doesn't have a say on At the time, just to hear her thoughts. So I think it's always fun. So welcome back, kaylie. Thank you so much for having me back yet again.
Speaker 1:Hope you all aren't getting sick of me. Well, I just particularly love being part of the the wrap up episodes it's. It's such an honor because obviously I love talking with you on the episodes we're on. But then I also feel so connected to other GNAs when I get to listen and just sit back and just hear all of the thoughts on the episodes I'm not a part of and I always have so many thoughts. So it's so fun to reflect on not only what's going on with us during the year but just reflections on what's gone well with with the different episodes. And I just have to say I was re-listening to a lot of the episodes and I found myself tearing up a lot.
Speaker 1:I always am so proud of what you've done with the podcast and I've said time and time again, I think you do something really special with the amount of diversity, versatility, a wide range of topics and I just think this round I was so, so excited about the topics. I felt so inspired so many different times. I've always been so excited to hear GNAs who were inspired, how they were inspired by Jane Austen, how they got into Jane Austen and then what they created and, oh my gosh, the travel guide there were. Just I every episode, was absolutely standout on this round, and so I just I hope you're so proud of yourself because I mean, I know you've you've had a rough year in a lot of ways but you've done so much amazing and I know you've had so many people who love Jane Austen. So I'm just so happy to be a part of it and I just think you're amazing.
Speaker 2:Oh, my god, kaley, you're going to make me cry Like we're just like what five minutes? And you're going to get me tearing up. Yeah, thank you. Well, yeah, that was definitely the aim.
Speaker 2:I did so much preparation last year because I really wanted I want to make sure that the podcast is reflective of all Jane I, to show that, like this is an inclusive space and, you know, everybody is welcome to join me in the community. We could do this. The two of us set up the whole thing and just like talk about every single topic. But you know the reason I always bring guests on and guess that I think for this year on, all necessarily like close friends. You know, like Al and Charlie and everything near me. These are all people that I consider close friends now.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, bringing people in that you know I did it know before recording with them is being challenging for me at the moment. I've been in this spot because I've just taken so much from learning from other people's perspectives, their lives, you know, their relationship with Jane Austin. It's really, it's been really good and, yeah, I just love that I've. Yeah, the topics have been able to be so different this time as well. So I always get excited for the planning stage, which is where I'm at again now and I'm like, because I worry, like throughout the year, I'm like how am I going to continue? I have no thoughts. And then, when it gets to this time of year, I'm like I got this idea.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'm kind of on the edge of my seat part of me, I mean.
Speaker 2:we can talk about it like push it up too much, be like hyping it up, and then everyone's like that was a terrible year, as you have next wrap up. I'm like I'm sorry, guys run out of ideas. I don't even know what I'm doing here anymore.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're never going to run out of ideas. I can't hear what you have in store.
Speaker 2:I know we'll talk about that later, because I feel like we should honor this year first. But and thank you to everybody for that because I put a request out on Instagram for people to start sharing, like, what they want to hear on the podcast. So thank you for doing that, and if you haven't done that already, you want to I'll put another box up on Instagram, but also in the Q&A section here I can set up another box that says you know, if there's things that you want to hear on the podcast next year topics and guests, anything like that just drop it down below. And this is on Spotify, but on YouTube you can do it in the comment section. And, yeah, I will put it everywhere for this stuff, because it's good when we can, you know, build this together. I think, when it's a collaborative process, it's just yeah. That in itself is rewarding, but shall we go all the way back to January?
Speaker 1:Let's do it. So I'm curious what was what was happening in January for you? Where were you?
Speaker 2:in January. So it's really interesting. So January I was very prepared. I think I'd already had like at least three or four of the episodes were already recorded for when the first one came out then, because obviously Christmas is a busy period, so I was already prepped.
Speaker 2:And it was really great because during that winter period I met Sophie laughing with Lizzie and we'd been out for coffee and stuff and then obviously she came on the podcast and I got her books and I'd read them and it was really interesting to be exposed to the kind of costume inside of the Jane Austen society where people dress up in everything, because that's not something that I've been doing myself and obviously I mean to be introduced to it by Sophie, who's, like you know, the pinnacle of that was incredible. So yeah, it was amazing to do that episode with her and I love the topic as well, because obviously I based that off her book, because her book's all about you know, what can you learn from Jane Austen heroines or what can you learn from literature, like protagonists and things. So yeah, that episode was fun, but I'd love to hear what lessons you learned from them because you went on that episode.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. And yes, before we delve into that, I loved that episode, but I just want to say how much I appreciated all the titles of the episodes this year too. As soon as I saw Life Lessons with Jane Austen and I saw it was laughing with Lizzie, I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And the yeah, the episode titles, just all were incredible. Shout out to the Lucy Steel one Elf reliability.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, my Elf reliability series. And then, when I kept getting guests on who's name was, begin with, el, I was literally just like what do I do with my life? I'm so sorry. This isn't about you, it was about the character.
Speaker 1:I, oh my gosh, I loved that. So anyway, but yeah, back to Life Lessons with Jane Austen. I mean, what an incredible episode. I really liked that. You talked about the different heroines and you talked about the strengths and also so Life Lessons related to their strengths but then also their shortcomings. Like you know I you were both talking about what an incredible heroine Elizabeth Bennett is. How many people look up to her. But I really liked that. You know, one of her shortcomings is that she made her judgments. Even though she's very shrewd, her judgments are too quick and so don't don't jump to conclusions, don't judge a book by its cover. I just liked that you had that balance of both.
Speaker 1:I really, really loved when Sophie mentioned that Elizabeth Bennett is a more evolved and mature version of Mary Ann Dashwood and when she said that, I went, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. Because I think we were confused when we were doing the Hogwarts house sorting. Elizabeth and Mary Ann had similar, similar characteristics and we were like, does it make sense to put the two of them in the same house? But she was talk, you both were really talking about how they do have similarities. So that point really stood out to me and then I really, really liked the point to that. A lot of people glorify Elizabeth as this heroine, but then when they're younger, but then as they get older, they're more open to the idea of second chances and Anne Elliot becomes more of the heroine that they identify with. So I just so many points in that I just loved so much.
Speaker 2:I love that, you know, and that's actually, I'd say, this year more than ever, has been like. That is what I've recognized in myself as well, and I actually think that was always the case. Like I, I've started to think like actually the characters that I resonate the most with, after all of these like characters studies we've been doing, is Anne Elliot and Shane Bennett, and I was like, is this now, is I just do I just feel like this now that I feel like I you know I keep everything to myself like a lot of the time and I feel like I maybe carry too much of a burden sometimes, like by not speaking openly about like my feelings or like stresses and stuff. But it's so funny because if you go back to the first ever episode that I did with Elle, I was like I don't relate to Anne Elliot, oh, like I would speak up, I would do this and that, and it's so funny now, like to reflect back, I'm literally just like is he what you're on about?
Speaker 2:Like you wouldn't? You wouldn't, you're not that person. Like you do keep things to yourself. And yeah, suffering, suffering, silence, kind, which I'm working on, guys, I'm working on that, but it, yeah, and I think, when I was really listening, that's what stuck out to me as well. I was like, actually there is that transition that you go through in your own life where you resonate with one character, only to resonate with a different one later on or realize actually you're all more like someone else in the character you thought you resonated with was actually the one you aspired to be.
Speaker 1:No, you actually are oh, my gosh, I resonate with so much of that, so much of what you said doing the first episode and and not relating to Anne Elliot at all, but it makes so much sense. I kind of feel like when we're a lot younger, there's this emphasis on I have to know the answers, there's one right answer and I have to speak out and this is the exact truth. And then I think I don't know. As you age and mature, you realize that often there aren't clear cut answers. There's a lot of nuance and also sometimes strength is knowing when to jump in. And yeah, and so I relate to that and I also I relate to thinking that you're more like one character and then having your friends, family, the closest people in your life be like what I think you're absolutely like this character, like I always sort of thought I was like Eleanor and my family and friends are like what are you talking about? You're so much more like Mary Anne or you used to be like, oh, okay, yeah, it's funny what you're like.
Speaker 2:Your family see us as well though, isn't it, I suppose? And it there's a difference between you all at home sometimes and who you are when you're like out in public or like at work and things so, and there's some dynamics that we don't necessarily see the characters in. So it's difficult to place everything and like she won it in, but I think when you age so you do appreciate different things more. I think it's easier to appreciate the maturity of persuasion, like I've always loved persuasion, like Pride and Precious always been my favorite, but persuasion's been totally up there like competes for Pride and Precious, for sure, but I am appreciating the maturity of that so much more now. Feel like I just want peace in my life. Now. This is it. Now you know you mid 20s and you're like I want peace, I just want peace.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like I've talked about this before on other episodes, but I feel like when I was first reading Jane Austin, I glorified Mary Anne and Willoughby at the beginning of their relationship, so much like the fire at the intensity, and I was like true love is always that way and it stays like that forever. And now I'm like, oh, you know what I think? Second, attachments are a good thing. It means you've had life experience and you've learned and actually I think having peace and is actually the goal. So yes, totally.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think so as well. Do you think, if Marianne and Willoughby had like had went with a situation where they'd waited a few years and then reunited, do you think it worked?
Speaker 1:no, I thought about it for a second. I I think no because Wentworth even though we can argue Wentworth gets a little lost along the way with his flirtations with the, with, with Louise, when life cracks me up plus because, yeah, yeah, the guy has some serious unhealed muscular energy for like 80% of the book but he, I just think, I think, I think Willoughby doesn't have enough.
Speaker 1:He reminds me of Wickham and in that he just gets carried away and he's really impulsive and impetuous and I I don't. I don't see him maturing and and being enough for Marianne and being moral and steadfast enough for her. I see his eye wandering. I see him maybe not making the best financial choices. I wouldn't trust his level of steadfastness the way that I do. Wentworth, I think. End of the day, wentworth went off. He was a self made man, he had a lot, he had a vision and a confidence in himself and he looked he never lost love for him.
Speaker 1:So I think, I think no. What do you think?
Speaker 2:I think no as well. I feel like Willoughby. He, I feel like he regretted and really wanted Marianne because he knew he couldn't have her. Then, do you know, I mean because she was this unattainable person. I think that's because, like in the book it says, you know, he was like devastated and like when he turns back up when she's like sick and he's like drunk and saying how, like, how he's not in love with his like wife, and all this thought, and it's just not the way to go about things, is it? It's just like. No, that doesn't show I'm not being funny, but coming in when somebody's like sick and that ruining somebody's peace does not show that you love that person. Like, if you love that person, you see you've caused them that much suffering. Take a step back. Like do not approach them, let them do their healing work. Like don't be like barging in through the door, be like can I see it? No, that's just not love, is it? That is absolutely that selfish behavior and I don't think he could overcome that being selfish.
Speaker 1:I completely agree. I think at the end of the day, willoughby's out for Willoughby and he's he's self-serving, and we've talked about the complexity of it all. I think you know we both agree. He did have feelings for Marianne but end of the day, willoughby's out for Willoughby versus Wentworth. Think about the, think about the, the part with the carriage where he can't bear to see Anne fatigued and he helps her into the carriage. Well, it's all too like really.
Speaker 2:I'm great at the same time. He's like especially in the adaptation, where he's like whoop, whoop, whoop, sit in the carriage and like, turns away and instantly like I'm going to help you because I just got help myself, but also I hate myself for it.
Speaker 1:That is actually probably one of the most painful moments in an adaptation of ever see, because in the book it is so well thought out and so caring and you're right, and that the 2007, I think, adaptation you just sort of flings around the I don't know how we got onto this topic, but we got there.
Speaker 2:But that was like, yeah, the first episode was really good and it was good to reflect on life lessons that I've learnt and I reckon that's like an episode that I could definitely redo at some point in like different life lessons. Or I know I said to Sophie about us doing it for the heroes as well, because I feel like there's so much to be learnt from the heroes as well. In themselves, they go on such a journey. This is a Jane Austen who just blows my mind. Obviously that have a podcast about her. But, like the point is, can you imagine having your secondary characters or your love interests have these complicated journeys of their own? I just think that's amazing.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of the reasons why Jane Austen's stories are so palpable and powerful is I'm just thinking of Mr Darcy as the standout to me but you really see how much Lizzie's involved with helping him grow and mature and challenge his vices and just become such a more evolved, wonderful human. And I think that would be a phenomenal episode. To bring Sophie back or if she's willing to come back and do an episode on the heroes and lessons to be learnt from them. I just can think of so many ways that you could go about that. I think I've learnt a lot about what I would want in a partner from Mr Knightley. I think that would be an amazing follow-up episode. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're thinking about what approach to take, I also think I was thinking this earlier today a fun episode for us to do together at some point should be which heroes we would want to be with and why I thought that would be so fun. Oh my gosh, yeah, I just think that would be so fun to do that. I mean, we're both straight, so obviously we'd be into the heroes. But yeah, I was like that'd be so funny, do you not think? And also the reasons why we wouldn't go for the others.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I'm committing right now to doing that episode I already have.
Speaker 2:I just pencil you in yeah, yeah, I think that would be really, really fun. Is there anything else you want to add on that first episode?
Speaker 1:Oh man, I mean, I had so many, you know so many things I loved about it. I just back to I mean back to Elizabeth. Just I was thinking of the Eleanor Roosevelt quote when the two of you were talking about how powerful of an influence Elizabeth is and what an inspiration she is. And the quote I'm thinking of is no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. And so just the commentary on if people of a certain status are trying to make you feel inferior, you can fight back against that, and I think Jane Austen herself comments on that indirectly by having people of high class, high status, behaving with such a lack of propriety, right Like Lady Catherine de Berg we talked about recently, she herself doesn't act very well and with propriety same with Mr Bingley's sisters at times whereas people of you know a more humble social status, like the gardeners, end up impressing Mr Darcy so much because they're such lovely people and yeah. So that was just another standout moment for me when you were I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Jane Austen she herself was very much like that, because I excuse me if I get this whole story wrong, but I believe there was something to do with Emma, where the Prince Regent he wanted it to be dedicated to him and Emma was like, and Jane Austen was like, really like, I really don't want to do that because I don't think she was as big as fan anyway, and she was like I really don't want to do that and that'd be the case.
Speaker 2:She did end up doing it in the end, but I think that I mean, there's always I always say this there's a reason Cassandra had to burn her all of her letters and I think it's probably because she genuinely had that in her where she didn't want to just like bow down to superior people in society. I think throughout her novels she shows that she really sees people as equals, men and women as equals. You know, I feel like her work is a commentary on human nature and that doesn't matter from when you're bought like, it doesn't matter what family you're born into. That that's just human nature, it's just natural You're so right about her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Jane Austen, I think you know, everyone has their strengths and vices and I think, I think, just like you said, Jane Austen was quite judgmental herself and knew that it makes sense why I could.
Speaker 1:You know, cassandra burned her letters, but she was just a genius at portraying human nature. Every, but all characters have qualities of someone that you know in your current life, and that's pretty incredible. And if something about what you just said reminded me of another part I really liked about that episode, which is you both talked about which characters you related to, and, but then you also were able to pretty objectively talk about the strengths of other characters.
Speaker 1:And you'd say, even though I don't, relate to this character and maybe she's not my favorite, I really see how you can learn a life lesson from her, and so I really valued that too.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, the conversation about Fanny Price really surprised me, but I feel like I took so much from that, yeah, and actually this year as well. Honestly, I'm gaining so much sympathy in I think love would be too strong a word at this moment but I'm gaining a lot of sympathy and fondness for Fanny that I never had before, Just by looking at her through different lenses, doing that filling off with Mrs Norris, like just thinking of how much she suffered by such a terrible person. I've done a lot of growing this year, guys. Clearly, I'm actually just still like I feel bad for Fanny. I really like Fanny now.
Speaker 2:I just, yeah, I think there are aspects of her character that I'm not massive on and I do think I think a lot of that for me comes from the fact that I really don't like that she goes with Edmund. I don't think she deserves that, don't think she should have been with him. Her kind of obsession with him for me I'm just like no, absolutely not. He's not worthy of that at all. But I think that she did go through a lot. I couldn't get over some of the comments you made about Mrs Norris in that fill-in-off episode. Gosh, this woman's horrendous. Can you imagine being with somebody so toxic and awful and being abused from being a child all the way up to your adult years, oh God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this makes me think of the part of your conversation with Sophie where you're both naming that right. It is kind of annoying sometimes how passive Fanny can be and how meek she is. But I remember Sophie saying something like imagine having Mrs Norris around. You learn. It's kind of a survival coping strategy to not have too much of an opinion, because even when you don't say anything, you're going to be targeted and attacked. And it did make me think Fanny is living in a traumatic environment and so we have to have empathy for that, and I think you both really named that beautifully.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, something else that happened in January as well, although this was a project that we did for a couple of months, but something that came to fruition in January was the new cover art, right, that Melody did for me Melody I will tag her information below A fantastic illustrator. She does loads of stuff on Instagram it's really fun to see, and she does a lot of seasonal posts. So she does really cute witch-based images as well in the Halloween time and Christmas-themed ones at Christmas. But, yeah, that was so good and I was so chuffed with that when that all came out. That was this year, right, I feel like I'm a blind seeer. I wasn't even this year. Oh my God. Oh my God. This year's gone so quick. But also feels like it's been a lifetime.
Speaker 1:Girl, I agree with you, yeah, but oh, I love the bust and then you just like, the animation is so cute and the dreamy expression it's so sweet. She did a great job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I've always said this on another wrap-up episode, but sometimes I see things in my mind's eye and I can just I can picture it cut like. I'm like I can see this, this be nothing. And the cover art was one of them. But that was so difficult to try and to explain to somebody like this sort of after, and she just captured it beautifully, like what I was explaining. She was so patient with me because there was like little things that I wanted to adjust in the final work. I was just so pleased with it. Yeah, it was really, really chuffed. I think it just embodies the podcast. I was really, really happy with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very you and it's just such a, it's just so welcoming to the image. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I hope so. That was the plan and obviously I like kicked off with YouTube at the start of the year as well, starting to post the episodes on YouTube on YouTube. And then I did. I was doing like personal stuff for a while which I loved, making that lifestyle content and things and making just like Jane Austen themes and videos on my own YouTube channel.
Speaker 2:But this year got crazy, guys. Honestly, this is the year I'm calling this the year of the plot twist. My life kind of went up in flames come springtime and I had a lot of change. You know like I moved back to my hometown. That was just mega.
Speaker 2:Obviously I'm not going to go into like loads of details, but like emotionally it's been a roller coaster and, yeah, I changed jobs.
Speaker 2:It's just been like, yeah, my whole life kind of went up in flames. So it's been difficult at times to stay focused on the podcast and I think at times I had to give myself a bit of grace that I was just like you know what it's not. There's going to be times that this isn't going to be perfect. You're not going to be able to keep showing up fully, and that's been a good lesson for me this year, I think as well, and also like I didn't want to come across as inauthentic, you know. I mean like showing up like everything's fine when actually you know our private life things weren't fine. But then I also didn't want everything to slide. Because I'd worked so hard on this for like two years I was like I don't want to not show up at all. It would have been so easy to just be like I'm not going to do any episodes, I'm not going to bother with this anymore. And I didn't want to do that either because, yeah, hopefully my future self thanks me for pushing through on some level.
Speaker 1:So many thoughts on that. I mean, you have been through so much emotionally this year, and what if I said I think because of that, I think it's actually made some of the episodes even better and even more powerful, because I think you've gained a whole nother perspective in a new way of relating to certain characters emotionally, and I'm so glad that you didn't try to show up inauthentically. You have to show up as yourself in whatever moment in time you're in, and I think you really did an amazing job of doing that, while continuing to keep things professional and move the podcast forward in an amazing way. Like I seriously think, if anything, this year you've leveled up the podcast.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, nothing kicks me up the bum like a crisis. Well, that gets me going. Oh my gosh, so funny. Yeah, well, I hope so. And yeah, I feel like in many ways it's helped in the sense that I've changed my perspective on a lot of things and I've been able to come up the episodes with a different mindset and I've just grown so much this year. Oh my goodness, as well, I know you have as well. Okay, like I want to make it all about me, like I think we both had a bit of a wild year of so many ups and downs. Obviously, I've always going to go into too much detail, but like we come on and we'll do these episodes sometimes, but we'll have like 30 minutes before guys, well, we're literally just, like you know, trying to catch up on everything. Then we'll have phone calls outside in the podcast. Be like, what's going on with you? Like what are we doing? Are we doing? Okay, are we? Are we going to make it through 2023?
Speaker 1:I know it's like a little amp up session. You good, you good. I'm not sure. I'm not sure either. All right, let's do this.
Speaker 2:We got this oh my gosh, it's so true. It's so true, but we do, we push through. And yeah, there's been some other great episodes that I'd love to see. I'd love to talk about the Alice for liability series. Can we talk about that? Oh my gosh, so funny. Um, they were some fun episodes. I'm not finished there either. I definitely want to do one on Louisa to kind of wrap that series up. But yeah, the Lydia Bennett one and the Lucy steel one, um, yeah, your thoughts on that.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Okay, so many thoughts. Where do we even start? You know I love the character study episodes, so I'm always, I'm always really excited to to work on those. Oh my gosh, I wrote so many notes. Let me just find this. So which one came? Which one came? Okay, so I'm finding my notes for the episode 46, the one with Lynette on Lydia yes, Lynette from story hooks Okay.
Speaker 1:So I just have to say when I listened to this episode, this was one of the episodes where I remember exactly where I was when I was listening to it and I kept tearing up during it. So I promise we'll get to the meat of my thoughts on your content, but I really, really enjoyed the beginning of that episode. Um, just how she started her book bookstagram and how she has this very close friend. But when, when she had kids, it was just they became a little bit more disconnected. And you know I have so many of my friends right now who are new mothers and having kids.
Speaker 1:And when Lynette was talking about how it can be hard in motherhood to to connect back to your own identity outside of being a mother, I just found myself tearing up so much.
Speaker 1:It was so, it was so authentic and it just reminded me whether it's motherhood, whether it's career, whether it's something else. Uh, it's so important that, even if you have to devote a lot of attention to a certain aspect of your life, that you stay connected to your hobbies and passions and that you give yourself the time to connect to your community. So I just love how she took that time back for herself and channeled it into this bookstagram and and finding this community of of Janeites and book lovers and I'm not even a mother. I was thinking about one of my best friends, but I I just related to it so much because I think for the past year and a half, my struggle is working in a really all consuming, emotionally taxing career with long hours. So, even though I love my job, it's very sorry that is my bird clock. Uh, that was gifted to me by my father. I can turn that off or you can leave it, because it's kind of hilarious, um, okay.
Speaker 2:That is so funny, I'm leaving that in case. That's just hilarious. That's a whole other story, I guess I'm sorry, we're in a deep, deep, deep moment.
Speaker 1:Okay, anyway, I'm sorry, um, but so I just it's, it's been, it's just been very, very different. It's just been very, very difficult emotionally and practically to take that time to, to connect to what I'm passionate about and I've been so. I've been so grateful to continue to be on this podcast and even though my half agony, half hope account I haven't been able to post recently and keep up with that, having this Jane Austen community and having this time and this outlet just is so important to me and listening to that at the beginning of that episode just meant so much to me and it reminded me that that other people have the same struggles and that we all do have each other, whether it's in person, whether we meet over the internet.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I was just kind of sobbing at the beginning of that episode, and it just really meant a lot to me, and I think it it must have meant a lot to other people as well.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that so much, yeah, and so true. Like I know, like work for you is takes so much energy, so much time, and obviously you love it, but also it's a massive chunk of your life and I love having you on the podcast, obviously, and I you know it's finding the balance between I don't want to ask too much of you because I know you've got so much going on, but also I'm like Kaylee, I know that you love this, though Like, please come on, you're such a good time, like we'll do this, it'll begin, it'll be like such a break and everything. And, yeah, I think it is finding that time for yourself, though, isn't it? And carving out moments like just for you, like something I've started doing on a Sunday, which you should you should join in with me, kaylee, to do this.
Speaker 2:I have, like I don't even know what to call them like self-care Sundays, which is just like after I have tea, like I'll just get in the bath, like face mask on. I'll just like listen to a podcast episode not one of my own, obviously, that would be slightly, a little bit intense, but a different podcast and I'll just like, or like an audio book, and I'll just sit there and I'll literally be like and even like I'm just like it's just taking that time. You know, we should do this Like I should like text you and be like it's self-cast Sunday friends.
Speaker 1:I hope you do, because by the time I wake up with the time difference you'll need, like your morning shower you can tell me about your day to day information. That's true. That actually would be amazing. And, that being said, I was going to say I know you've had such a taxing year, but I am so impressed by all of the all of the books you've read this year. Like even when you were talking to the office, I'm like I saw there and in one sitting I like I read the entire thing. So I have ADHD. It takes me. I don't have the attention span to do it, so I just I was in awe about how much you've been able to fit in by reading, and that was inspiring for me too.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and I love that as well. That's something that's definitely changed this year, which has been incredible and, honestly, such a privilege that you know I've had authors reaching out to me to be on the podcast and getting the opportunity to read their books, sometimes before publication. You know, that's just amazing. I mean, who wouldn't want to have that? That is one of the things that I've been really proud of that the podcast has got to that point that it's got that, that kind of exposure that I can do that now.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, reading some of these books has just been fantastic because I think for a long while, like before this year, I totally just wasn't taking the time to read anything that wasn't Austin based, because I was reading stuff for the podcast constantly, like going back through the novels, and I was reading like very little non actual Jane Austen books. So, yeah, it's been fun and I was reading other stuff as well for my, like my personal YouTube page earlier in the year and just getting back into just like reading for pleasure is being really good. But, yeah, sometimes I do it in a hyper focused way where I'm literally just like sitting in one sitting. I'm just like, yeah, I got, I got. That was ace.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I had um Tizah Price on. Um, he writes Jane Austen murder mysteries. And Julia Seals, who also writes a similar genre. Um, sarah Das at the end of the year, who wrote the persuasion retelling um the YA one. That was amazing as well. I'm just like, yes, friends, I love this. I love people being inspired by Jane Austen and like wanting to write stuff. And hang on, can we go out to the start of the podcast episode when you said you were like you want, always wanted, to write a book. Friend? Yes, what? I was literally just like when you said that was literally just like yeah, this will happen.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, oh, oh man, uh, okay, in a nutshell, I don't want to take up too much of this with that, but since I was a little girl, I have kept, um, actually a quotations journal, which is very funny that I have the yeah, my Instagram page is is a quote, so it's a compilation of literature and psychology quotations. But I realized, since I was a little girl, I'd highlight parts of books and pull out the quotations and keep them in a journal and then I used to just write snippets of snippets of stories. So I think when I was in sixth grade, I wrote this whole series of the Spuga Jones, uh, which was Indiana Jones's daughter and all of her adventures saving the day, um, and, yeah, it was. So I was actually, I was an English major in college and I used to think about writing.
Speaker 1:I wanted to to write something that was a shout out to Jane Austen, but it took place in modern day, but it had a lot of illusion. Like, uh, there were different modern day characters that were similar to Mary Ann and Eleanor. I wanted to do the sister foil. So it was sort of, yeah, modern day sense and sensibility and it's on right.
Speaker 2:How did you? How have you never told me about this? I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I've always wanted to do it, but when I've written little, yeah, this is. This is so weird, this hasn't come up. I haven't allowed myself to be to let it be real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't allow it to be open about it.
Speaker 1:But now I know you better believe it. Now I know. Well, maybe you can help me make this happen. I write it in these sort of sporadic chunks, but I'm I've always been so fascinated hearing writers, inspirations, processes, and so maybe one of the reasons that all of these episodes in last year have meant so much to me is because you've I've actually gotten to to hear these authors and hear how they were inspired, how they first came into contact with Jane Austen.
Speaker 1:I was laughing so hard. What? Who? Who's first intro to Jane Austen was Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. Oh my gosh, was that Julia Seals? I think so. Yeah, yeah, I have it in my. Yeah, I think it was Julia. Yeah, it is. I wrote it down in my notes. I was like, ha ha ha, pride and Prejudice and Zombies. And yeah, I loved listening to that episode too, and it's, it just makes it feel more accessible. It's like, okay, they, they did it, they follow, they followed through. I loved all the shout outs to Agatha Christie. It was very cool to see how she just melded the love of Austen and the Regency period with all these Gothic influences and then the mysteries. I mean I think Agatha Christie came up in at least three episodes over the past year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great, yeah, definitely Such. I love seeing how people take these writers and they have such, they're so inspired by them that it, you know it sparks their own creativity and I love that. That's doing that for you as well. And, kayleigh, you know that I will support you all the way if you want to make this a thing, because I am so excited for you. I think, yes, absolutely. Why not 100%? You supported me for so long with the podcast friend. You've got to do this just so that I can pay you back. I can be like girl, I'm here, you're the biggest cheerleader.
Speaker 1:I'm ready. Oh my gosh. No. Every every time we do a podcast episode, I leave just feeling so energized and I'm like wait, can this be my job? Can we just do this forever?
Speaker 2:We'll get there, we'll get there, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, where were we?
Speaker 2:even I can't even remember where we what we were talking about initially. This is what happens on these wrap up episodes. Guys, we're all over the place, I know.
Speaker 1:So, oh my gosh, so much to say, Like I want to deep dive on every single episode and it's like can we even do that? I think okay, so we were talking about Lynette. Right, we were talking about Lynette and the episode with Lydia.
Speaker 2:The Alice Liability stuff, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So again, the beginning, first part of that episode, I was feeling the feels and tearing up and then I loved, I love. Okay, I want to say generally this kept coming up as a theme in many episodes, but there was a more gentle approach and a little bit more compassionate lens for a lot of the characters, especially female characters, that are considered villains or considered problematic. I saw some people being more compassionate to Lucy Steele, to Mary Crawford and then, since we're talking about this episode, lydia, and so I really, really liked the point where you both talk about the fact that Lydia comes into this world as a disappointment. Like, let's be real, I never thought of it that way, but it's so true that because it was fine for Jane and Lizzie to be girls, but because the it is state would be entailed away to Mr Collins unless Mr Bennett had a son, they were, they were looking for that son. So by the time you get to the fifth daughter, she's already a disappointment. I liked how you talked about sibling dynamics. Often, by the time that you get to the youngest child, parents are more checked out, which you see so much with with Mr Mr Bennett's apathy and even kind of disdain and negative feedback of Lydia. So I just liked that that was named. I also oh my gosh, so many, so many thoughts about all of this.
Speaker 1:Oh, I liked the. I liked the, the idea that Lydia's plot point Lydia and Wickham running away together is actually an important catalyst for Lizzie and Darcy getting together. Because I think I mean when I say that now I'm like that's obvious, but my lens was always oh, lizzie and Darcy were coming back together and it was the golden time when they were out Pemberley and she was meeting his sister, and then Lydia and Wickham placed tension on their relationship and it's a bad thing. But actually everything that happens with Lydia and Wickham makes Darcy and Lizzie's relationship stronger and Darcy is finally emboldened to to propose to Lizzie again, because Lady Catherine storms in and Elizabeth refused to, refuses to back down. So the idea that that that part of the story needed to happen, I thought was really interesting.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think so, Love that. And obviously another thing that started this year, which I'll link in as a fact that we started the book club in. The first book that we read was Pride and Prejudice, and I read it at such a slower pace than I I usually do for prepping for the podcast. Those are the kind of things I was totally able to appreciate this time, like their journey from that point, like from the Pemberley point where obviously he catches the walking around the estate, that point on, so much happens in that part of the novel, like volume three is just all sorts like it is wild.
Speaker 2:And yes, and I think Lydia in her actions and what happens in everything, darcy just steps up massively, like in volume three, he, he just comes like right in there masculine energy, he's like I'm a problem solver, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, and he doesn't actually expect anything in return because he doesn't even know if Lizzie's like she's already refused him once and obviously he's being nice to her, but being nice to someone doesn't mean that they suddenly then want to be with you, and so, yeah, I think the fact that he does these like bold actions that change their lives for the better without expecting anything in return is so massive, like he says, he did it for her. But he did it for her, it was like unconditional love. You know, he did it for her without expecting anything back. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:It feels yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels so much more selfless. Just like you said, it feels it really is a pure act of love for Elizabeth, going above and beyond. He's not in it for himself and I think yeah, I always. You know, when you see Lizzie and Darcy on the up and up, they're all these warm, warm feeling, warm, fuzzy feelings. But it's in the moment where you find out how much he did to save the family's honor after everything with Wickham and Lydia, where you're like this man is, this man is the same.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I appreciate the journey that Lizzie goes on so much more, because actually in like volume three she is having a serious emotional crisis because she is realizing this guy that she's rejected is actually like amazing and she's like, oh my God, what have I done? Like in now he's doing all this extra stuff and she's like realizing that she has feelings for him, also battling the fact that she's already refused him and also all this other stuff's going down in her inner turmoil. I didn't realize actually how reflective Pride and Prejudice is, because I always focus on that with persuasion, you know, being inside and mind. But actually volume three of Pride and Prejudice is very similar with Elizabeth, like where she's so in her head about her feelings and she's just trying to figure things out and learning all the more stuff about Mr Darcy. It's just yeah, it's awesome. I don't want to stray too much from Lydia. I do have a couple of thoughts on Lydia as well, but I'll pass back over to you first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I mean I just I remember nodding my head. I agreed with so much of what the two of you were talking about and I think one other thing that just pops out is I really liked when Lynette was mentioning that the narrative was always Lydia ran off with Wickham, lydia there's so much women shaming and I was so glad that that was named that it should have been Wickham seduced Lydia or Wickham and Lydia ran off together, because when you think about it, well, wickham kidnapped Lydia. Let's be clear, right, especially because she's 15 and I, if, if I'm not mistaken, I think Mr Darcy is 2526. So Wickham has to be around 10 years older. Wickham, in that situation is is much older.
Speaker 1:I feel like it was there. They both should take responsibility, but I would say he's much more at fault than she is, and so I think it's really important to name that. She got a lot more shaming than he did and we see, we see that that women are so much more shamed and punished than men are in similar situations. Like I don't think Willoughby really ever got, really was able to. He wasn't very shamed for impregnating. Oh my God, oh my God. I love Liza, right, and I don't see Wickham ever really being punished. I just think a lot of times it's a woman falling from grace. Same thing in Mansfield Park, right, and so I was just glad the two of you talked about that, because it's really sexist and unfair.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that bothered me so much, like when I thought about it in more detail, and also something that I realised on my latest reread with the Patreon Book Club was Lydia writes to Mrs Forrest to say and like, we're going to Gretna Green, we're going to get married. And so her intentions weren't necessarily bad. She thought this person wanted to marry her. And she says, like, how much she loves Wickham and everything. And obviously I don't think she fully understood the concept of love.
Speaker 2:I don't think she was in love with Wickham, but she was young and naive and you know, he, for all intents and purposes, could have said we're going to go to Gretna Green and get married, and she had no idea that he was just going to take her to London and they were going to hide out in some like flat somewhere. So, yeah, terrifying. There are moments that I've also realised that Lydia is very mean, like she's cruel about a servant at one point and she's awful to Jane at one point, saying she's going to be like an old maid, like, but she's 15. And I think we can all say that maybe when we're 15 we said things that we regretted, just because you get caught up with peer pressure and you're just, you're young and you just, you know, don't know enough of the world and everything, and I don't think she should be punished to the extent that she is with her situation with Wickham, oh my gosh, and that's such a good point.
Speaker 1:That is such a good point that in her letter, even though it was rash and immature, everything that she did in her letter her intentions are I am marrying Wickham, whereas we know that Wickham just wanted to have his fun and was never intending on marrying her. So again, that's another instance where the intention there was very different and so he should be more at fault than she should. So I completely agree. That's a really good point. And then I also was glad that you played the devil's advocate a little bit, saying how Lydia did act pretty terrible, because she did.
Speaker 1:And my last read of Pride and Prejudice the part where Mrs Gardner is trying to talk to Lydia to help her recognize that, hey, lydia, this is not good, like we're trying to salvage this situation, but this was a really bad thing and I hope you understand and take responsibility. And Lydia was just sort of stonewall, not having it. I think we do see her immaturity and even cruelty. And oh my gosh, the 1995 BBC version does such a great job of showing how Lydia, when she thinks she's a married woman, that she's just so much better than all of her sisters, and remember when they're lining up to go back in the house and she's like no Jane, you must go lower, for I'm a married woman and I know it's so bad, oh my God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just shocking, isn't it? And it also got me as well in this latest read is the Darcy takes her aside and he has like a full blown conversation with her, being like it doesn't say what stated, but it's like it's stated that he, it's stated that he talks to Lydia and then talks to Wickham as well, but he spends longer with Lydia and it's like I mean, even that is massive, like the fact that he tries to reason over and, like you know, talk to her about the situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so true. She a lot of people to try to talk to her about the situation and the fact. I don't know, I'm a therapist, so I don't want to say like a shame, we don't want to perpetuate or promote shame, but she doesn't have any remorse, I guess, is the word I would say. There's no guilt, there's no accountability and it is quite cringe, at different times, even when she promises Mr Darcy, she won't say anything. I mean, obviously we're glad this happened, that Lizzie found out, but the fact that she just sort of blabs that Mr Darcy was at the wedding, she's just so irresponsible and thoughtless and that is off-putting.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I know, oh my gosh, I know we could. We could get on that conversation forever. This is something that I was thinking about doing in the future, guys, is maybe taking specific scenes and just like doing a deep dive on those, like we do with the character studies that were particular moments in the novels that I think stand out like kind of similar to the letters episode that we did a while back, kaylee. I thought something kind of similar to that would be good. I mean, even if they're shorter I say shorter episodes, they're never shorter episodes Even if they're shorter episodes and where we're just talking about a particular scene. I thought that'd be really fun just to kind of do a deep dive on the whole dynamic.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 2:I'm so curious what was there a scene you had in mind, or there's a, there was a I can't say particular, but I think doing these like book club reads, where I'm taking it slower and I'm like seeing just particular moments, I absolutely think there are a few pages, if not a few chapters, where Lizzie and Darcy and Lizzie's asking Darcy how he fell in love with like when did you first fall in love with me? And everything. Those moments are just so amazing. And Lizzie, I think for all intents and purposes, comes across quite hard and quite. I know she is outgoing and spoken, but she's a little, she's a little rough around the edges slightly at the start of the book where she really lets her go down with Darcy. At that point and she's fun and she's just light and yeah, I just I'd love to do a deep dive on that.
Speaker 1:I think that would be phenomenal. I think, just like the character studies, it helps narrow the lens so that you can take time to go through the details which can be so rewarding and so important, and so I love the idea of also doing that with specific scenes in the, in the books, particularly, maybe, scenes that aren't highlighted as much in the adaptations, too, because there isn't time.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love it. Oh, so many plans, guys, so many thoughts to have on this. I love it so much. So just before we move on to the next topic, then I just want to say a little bit about our sponsor, house of Bennett. If, like me, you love taking a break from your modern life to escape into Jane Austen's world of handwritten letters, romantic rendezvous and long walks in the countryside, you will love the House of Bennett shop. House of Bennett offers stickers, pins, jewelry, totes, shirts and so much more. All themes around your favorite classic literature and period dramas, including Jane Eyre, anne of Green Gables, little Women and, of course, the works of Jane Austen. Head over to HouseofBennettcom, that's H-A-U-S-O-F-B-E-N-N-E-T, dot C-O-M and use my code WhatTheDiscount for 15% off at the checkout. So once again, that's HouseofBennettcom and use my code WhatTheDiscount for 15% off. And also we did the Lucy Steele episode, which was in the Ella's Liability series.
Speaker 2:Lucy Steele is just the worst. I'm sorry, I can't see any saving grace for that woman. She's just pretty terrible. Still, that's going to be like. For me that's like one of the biggest Jane Austen plot twists. The fact that she marries his brother is just it's beyond for me. I'm like always like what the hell? I can't even believe it.
Speaker 1:It really is so absurd that she marries Robert, but like they're perfect for each other, in the most cringe of ways. But that isn't. That is one of Jane Austen's best moments, I think, where there's the misunderstanding, where it's oh, Mrs Ferris sends her best wishes and they think that it's Lucy in the carriage with Edward, and then it turns out. And so then Edward shows up and Eleanor thinks that he's married. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:She's just despicable. Lucy sets it up that way as well, and it's just so bad. Oh, she is one of the worst people. But something that I have been thinking about as well this year is I feel like sometimes we think Lucy's terrible because of her actions, but we think she's so bad because we're so invested in Eleanor. I feel like maybe if you're somebody like Lucy, we'll pray for you. If you're somebody like Lucy and you are looking out for yourself and the well-being of your family, maybe people have selfish motives sometimes and they'll go. Oh, I'm going to go after things because that's what they want. Not everybody is going to be there supporting their friends and everything.
Speaker 2:I recently watched a video all about girl code and everything what makes a good woman Thought other women and everything. It was a fantastic episode. I'll link that below as well, guys, because I absolutely love this video that I saw on YouTube about this, because it is important for women to support other women. I just think not all women are like that. I think, yes, we think Lucy's terrible. What is that? Because we're coming from it, from our own values, our own standpoint, Because they're all Lucy's out there. I've met Lucy's. I'm sure you've met Lucy's Kayleigh. They're all women like that, who genuinely look out for themselves so much that they will backstab and they will cause terrible situations and tell you terrible stuff because they want to be the person that they know likes you and they're like well, actually I'll sabotage this because I want that person. Yeah, I've experienced that in life. There's people like that out there.
Speaker 1:Okay, they exist, yeah. Okay, let's see if I can find this in my notes, because I was listening to. I loved the deep dive on Lucy. Not just in the Lucy Steel episode, but in other episodes she was mentioned and portrayed in a different light. It was one of the episodes with one of the authors Was it the? Yeah, it was with Julia Seales again, too, where she portrays she kind of defends Lucy Steel a little bit too.
Speaker 1:I think we should talk about everything related to Lucy Steel, but I was really thinking about all the things I dislike about Lucy Steel and why it's important to analyze her character, but then also why certain character traits of her could be portrayed in a more compassionate lens. Yeah, that was actually another point that I had written down I wanted to talk about. Yeah, I think what's very cringe about her is just how calculated and inauthentic she is, which you both really name in this episode with Jane Austen Runs my Life. What's her first name? Again, leia. Yeah, you and Leia.
Speaker 1:It's so cringe how calculated she is and how much she seeks out Eleanor. It's clearly because she's threatened by Eleanor. But then this reaction formation like sweetness, I'm going to act completely the opposite of how I feel, like you feel the hatred coming out of her, but it's in this simpering sweetness and it's really an attempt to control what's going on and to make. It is just so incredibly uncomfortable for Eleanor, who's not asking for any of this information thrown in her face. I think no one can argue with the fact that Lucy is probably one of the most calculated and manipulative characters that Jane Austen has ever written.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, but in those times I guess women maybe even more than now had to look out for themselves because they had such a short time frame they needed to marry. Well, if they didn't have their own fortune, I don't think it justifies being a terrible person, because karma will get you. But if you're looking from it from a more sympathetic light, I guess we can see it in that stance. But she's a pretty terrible person.
Speaker 1:I think I think the manipulation and the way she treats Eleanor and the position she puts Eleanor in is pretty unforgivable. That is unacceptable. I thought it was really interesting Julia's take on things where she was talking about girl code and how in that period there was an emphasis on keeping things close to the chest and there were a lot of secrets. Particularly if you grow up in a small town where everybody is gossiping and everybody knows everyone else's business, it makes sense that people like Eleanor that it was the trend to keep things to yourself. But also, how can you show up authentically with other women and be yourself and share? She was saying that she understands why Lucy if Lucy were in a precarious position financially, would really go after what she wants at all costs.
Speaker 1:I think there's something to be said for the fact that while Eleanor and Marianne have to downsize and they're not in the best financial position and struggle, lucy, even more so, has no status, no standing. Connecting with Edward might be the most important thing to securing her future. It's not just about I don't know if she really loves him actually, but it's not just about being with him. It's probably her whole family's financial welfare. Going after what you want is not always a bad thing, and it's good to be assertive and go after what you want. I guess just the argument is could she have done that without roping Eleanor in in such a cruel, throwing things in your face kind of way?
Speaker 2:I love what you said about the privacy as well. I feel like people keeping things close to their chest back then and that's actually something I've reflected on so much. Moving back to my hometown and everything I felt like when I was younger and it felt like everybody knew everybody's business, and it's made me realize how much I appreciate privacy, because I recognized when I left how much more private I became. It was as if I didn't really tell people much at all about my private life and now I'm trying to find a balance between the two. But yes, sometimes it isn't actually the right thing to tell people everything going on in your life, because not everybody's going to have good intentions. That's why you have to find the right women in your life and avoid people like Lucy Steele for sure. But actually having those good relationships with women, that connection is it takes time to find those people Like. I just feel grateful now, like as an adult, that I've actually found those people. Or there's people from my past who I've grown with that we've become those kind of people.
Speaker 2:But I think for a lot of women they're still on that journey to find that close, you know, like girl tribe or whatever people that they can rely on, depend on. They can tell you know the deepest, darkest secrets to, and they know it's not gonna go anywhere and they know that that woman's also got their back. You know they're not in competition and that's so important and I feel like Lucy shows the complete opposite to that. You know the worst kind of friend that you can be and you can have, you know you don't want somebody who's in constant competition with you, somebody who's out to get you in terms of like your love life, that you know they think they need to sabotage your own love life for their benefit and, on top of that, when they feel like they've got something above you, they wanna rub it in your face. These are not the kind of friends we need in our lives. Guys. If you've got friends like that, come be friends with me and Kaylee bitch that bastard. They sound terrible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my gosh, when you say that, it's so true, it is so cruel how Lydia goes about things and just soliciting, yeah, she, just the way she speaks to Eleanor about things is so calculated. But I'm thinking too, even if it wasn't calculated and even if Eleanor and Edward didn't have that attraction like take that out of the equation, say that Lucy was sharing all of this with Eleanor but it wasn't for that calculated purpose, I think that still would have been considered really very lacking in propriety. For the time that it's a new acquaintance and you're spilling out all of these secrets about your engagement, I think that wasn't. That would be considered lacking in propriety. And I think maybe the argument is it's okay to open up a little bit more with how you're authentically feeling if the reason isn't calculated, if it's well-intended or if it's for a good reason. And it's interesting for how much Lucy is sharing too much oversharing.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, as much as I love Eleanor and she's one of my favorite heroines I get frustrated with how many secrets Eleanor's holding close to the chest like not even sharing with Mary Ann and part of me has compassion for that, because it's so clear, like with Mrs Jennings, with everyone gossip just got out. It's so understandable why she held things close to the chest, but it's also sad that she felt like she couldn't even tell her sister what was going on and felt that she had to carry the burden of all of that alone. And so, yeah, come be friends with me and Izzy, because we'll have your back and we're well-intentioned, and then you can open up about things. You should be able to open up authentically and be yourself, as long as it's a true and well-intentioned way and you're not being calculated and trying to manipulate someone else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think the fact that Lucy even states it is to show that it was always. In terms of the fact that Lucy even states it, I think, shows the manipulation behind it because, like you said, I think it would just be totally inappropriate, not even just then. Now, If you just met somebody, you wouldn't share this deep secret with them, Like the secret that you've kept for ages and it's really important that needs to be kept who's going to somebody at a party who they've just met and like, let me tell you my secret, you know why?
Speaker 2:No, it's obvious that she the only reason that ever came out is because she wanted to put Eleanor in that terrible position where one it was the pang of being like I know you like this person, but I'm gonna tell you something that's gonna make you hurt and know that you can never be with them. But then also it's like is she then? She's just the control, isn't it the control of Eleanor? I'm gonna tell you this so that I can control you, because you then can't do anything with your own feelings because, oh my God, it's too bad. The more I think about it, the worse it gets.
Speaker 1:Totally. I mean, it's very it could be a very effective strategy. Just like you said, it's a back off, it's a oh. If you ever tried to do anything with the knowledge of what I'm going through, then you're the terrible person.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I mean, that's not. I have experienced people like that before, to be perfectly honest with you. Like, I think there's some people that are like that, some people who are so self-motivated that they will do it even at the expense of friends or the expense of just like people they've just met or anything you know. They'll make sure that their needs are gonna be met above anybody else's. It's such a toxic trait, but I love that Jane Austen showcases it, because it's not unusual to come across those people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do think. Yeah, there is definitely that trait of some women being very jealous of other women, particularly around love interest stuff, and trying to tear other women down. And I'm just glad that Eleanor gets her happy ending because she goes through stuff.
Speaker 2:I know and working I know and no shame to any woman if you've been like that in the past, like you know there's you can change and you can become like the best woman that you can be Like. Even if you've done that stuff like in your past, like when you were younger and everything you know, you can work on yourself and you can become a woman that another woman wants to be friends with. You know, become the best version of yourself. In that scenario I don't think it's like the end of the world if you've done stuff like that, but we're not like condemning you, we're calling you out. We know that you're a bad friend. We know you're a Lucy steal.
Speaker 1:We all have like our stuff that we need to work on. I know that I've in the past like been very curious, you know, if an ex is dating someone new and wanting to know things about her. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. Oh my God. That makes me think of another episode I thought we could do. I thought we could do an episode with like red flags that are showcased by characters in the books and then being like what are our?
Speaker 1:or like beige flags, like what are our beige flags, yellow flags that we're working through. What's our green flag? This is our best quality. Oh my gosh, I'm glad you named that right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're not like, oh like we're the perfect examples of women and, like you know, everybody else is pulling the way side Absolutely not.
Speaker 2:Like it takes time to build, I think, strong, your strong character as a woman and showing off Cause I don't think society sets women up to be supportive in that sense. I actually think it still sets women up to be competitive and placed in like opposition to each other. So, yeah, it's something we all have to work on. It's something that we have to focus on, and that's why I'll leave that video below, because I loved it and I feel like it was really good and that made me realize there was things I can work on and it made me appreciate some of my friends more, because I realized, like, what are my friends, in particular, Daisy, I don't think she's gonna listen to this episode, but like I was like wow, she like takes so many of those boxes, like she has her girl closures on point and that's inspiring. Right To be around women who also share those values and show up like that is so important. I know we've spent ages on this topic now, but I think it's an important topic?
Speaker 1:I think it is too, and I think, yeah, we all have to work on ourselves individually, but I think it's equally as important to have strong women that you respect in your life, lifting you up and lifting them up. So it's gotta find your crew.
Speaker 2:I think so as well. Yeah, and that's something that I focus in on massively so much more this year. Being single, like the first time in like a decade, I'm literally just like where is my, where are my girls, like I need you please, like are you here for me? And luckily I have supportive women around me, so I'm really lucky in that sense.
Speaker 1:But yeah, no, I love everything you just said. Sorry, I wasn't cackling randomly, I was just. When I said gotta find your crew, it was like oh my gosh, that sounded the most nasally American.
Speaker 2:It's like polypocket. Gotta find your crew.
Speaker 1:Gotta find your crew. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:I love that, though I don't know what can I do now because it's been so long. There's a couple more episodes that I think would be good to mention, one of them being the Lost Sex scenes. That was so much fun to do, oh my gosh. And also, historically speaking, I learned so much just like really random facts about super random stuff, just like condoms back then, like what they were made of, and just like loads of different things. I think that was such an interesting episode to do and Annie had so much insight into that, because she has a podcast herself where she talks about that all the time. So, yeah, that was a really fun episode to do. I enjoyed that so much and I think, talking about the historical context as well, it's always good to have Elom. I did some episodes with her again this year which were really fun to do, one of those being the one with Jane and Frank and Hockey no, the one with Jane and Frank, which was so good. That's actually one of the most listened to episodes of this year.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love that. That was such a great episode and yes, I completely agree, that was one of my other main overarching points is it makes the podcast so much richer to have all these experts bringing in unique historical context on things that I would never have thought to research, but just make the whole experience so much more rich. I know it wasn't this particular episode, but learning that part of the Regency Beauty Guide was to make your pupils larger and stuff that was so there's a lot of these little tidbits that were so random but fascinating and, yeah, I just loved all of that.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, so okay. The Frank Churchill episode. Oh my gosh, where do I even start? It was such a great character study. I loved it so much. I've listened to it several times.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think Okay, here, after listening to this, it reinforced the fact that I really think that Frank Churchill is a lot more conniving and sneakier than might be the general opinion. Like I don't know about you, but I think a lot of people talk about how they would wanna be friends with Frank Churchill, that he's kind of charismatic and gregarious and fun and he's not that bad. Like people paint him in a pretty good light and you can see why because he is playful, he is fun, he's good with words, he brings energy to the room. But my takeaway was it was really really fun to hear a lot of the details that I had forgotten about in how calculated he is with the lies he spins and tells to cover all of this up. What did I? Oh my gosh, I took Okay, like the fact that he pretends not to know Mrs Bates's name, right, and then he takes forever to clean her glasses, like it's one thing. I think it's one thing to withhold information because maybe they're not able to share about their engagement yet for a multitude of reasons. That's okay. It's even okay if you have to tell a white lie, like the haircut thing was weird. But I understand that you're doing something not to draw attention to the issue that you can't disclose yet. Like that seems okay to me. But the fact that he just goes above and beyond to poke fun at the characters to keep himself entertained and he tells these elaborate lies, and it just blew my mind when you were talking about the part where he mentions he says oh, I could never be with someone who is as reserved as Jane Fairfax. He's like actively saying he's off put by his fiance.
Speaker 1:I was just writing in all caps I would be livid having my part. I talk that way about me to someone else, like what a betrayal and oh my gosh. So there's that. And then I think I was so glad you mentioned too the fact that Jane Fairfax is often it's often noted that she's ill and that she can't eat very much, and I always sort of I never read into that very much I was like, oh, it's sort of a more functional and de Berg situation.
Speaker 1:She's just not a great eater. She doesn't have a good constitution. But the more I think about it and the more I was listening to the nuances and the details that you both brought up, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, jane Fairfax was probably in so much pain seeing this small little town push Frank and Emma together and have Frank show Emma so much open attention and seeing how it makes so much sense that Frank and Emma be together and how much that's built up in the society and she must be and Frank's talking about you behind your back but then it's coming to your house and being like just blowing hot and cold constantly and yeah, that emotional turmoil, I get why she was like just so sick all the time and just feeling terrible.
Speaker 2:I mean, I can relate like my anxious tendencies is to under eat and over walk. So I understand Jane Fairfax. I get it Like the fact that she's walking everywhere all the time and the fact that she doesn't want to see anyone and she's like not eating much and she's like sick constantly. Yes, that kind of emotional turmoil do that to you. Like he puts her through so much. I think Mr Knightley's right. In the end I'm actually amazed that she still goes for him and she's still in love with him after all that, because he really toes the lot. Like he pushes his boundaries there. He pushes the limits with her and for what? For a day, and like he thinks it's funny that he's he didn't need to. You know, nobody suspected them anyway. Why did he have to take it so far?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I completely agree with that. Yeah, I had. When you and Elle were talking, I had this moment of being like, oh my gosh, this was an anxiety and grief response from Jane, who had to hold so much in and witness so much, and I also when you were talking about Frank Churchill with the whole Mr Dixon conspiracy that he made up like dude. Nobody thought that you sent her the piano. Why do you have to tell this elaborate story? It just feels very self-serving.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels immature for me like that, but something that's really interesting, as I started to notice some similarities between the way that Frank Churchill acts and the way that Wentworth acts at the start of the book. Like they do do similar things. Like Wentworth is like flirting and openly courting another woman while he's still in love with Anne, frank Churchill obviously openly like flirts with Emma and pretends and like eggs on the fact that they might be together, even though we know that they won't. And they both talk bad about the people behind the back that they have feelings for. What are you doing? Like who are you trying to prove this to? Are you trying to prove this to yourself? You don't have feelings for this person, or what? Because the reality is, when everything comes to light, you're the one that looks like a numpty. You just look like an idiot Numpty.
Speaker 1:I always, I always. It's always my goal to get Izzy. I'm always listening to the episode and she says numpty on other episodes. So it's always a red letter, wouldn't they? When you say numpty on one of our episodes, I love it so much, I'm gonna make it a thing in America.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you should. Yeah, I'd tear it for sure.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, but I Now that you say that I was gonna bring this up too. Someone said in the comments on one of our villain offs that it would be really interesting to put Wentworth and Frank Churchill against each other. I don't, I can't remember if they said as a villain off, but potentially talking about how they're problematic and how they're similar and who's worse, but I remember whatever that comment was. I was like that would be a phenomenal episode idea.
Speaker 2:Yes, I would love to do that, totally on my list to do that. I think, looking at this kind of like unhealed, like toxic masculinity that I think Wentworth and Frank both show I think both of them, you know, when they're fully in like, their arrogance, they're in their ego they just do stuff for whatever reason attention I'm not even sure what they're doing that for In the pain that they put the person that they actually have feelings for through to uphold this kind of notion, like whatever this character that they've created in their head about who they are and how they're gonna present themselves, that there's somehow some kind of womanizer and also not very nice but also really popular. I'm literally just like friend, you look like an idiot and then at the end then declare these feelings and be like I absolutely like. You know, I've always loved you and it's literally just like. I'm sorry, but where was this like 10 chapters ago from Like you've been acting so bad.
Speaker 2:And it's easier to forgive Wentworth because he goes on such a journey and is so vulnerable and open with Anne in the end, where he's literally just like like you know, there's all my cars on the table. This is how I feel and it's not like Anne gives him that much, like they're not engaged. When she comes back, you know they split up. She ended their engagement and everything, so she doesn't actually give him anything to hold onto. So I guess it makes more sense that he's not actively obvious about his feelings until he thinks the time's right. But, frank, they're engaged Like. This is actually the woman you're engaged to and you're actively being a numpty on a regular basis. What are you doing?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I agree with everything you just said.
Speaker 2:I well again, if we're gonna do an episode on this, I won't get two in the weeds.
Speaker 1:But the one thing I'll say is where is Jane Farrah Fax's half agony, half hope letter? I don't think she gets anything to make up for Frank's shenanigans, you know.
Speaker 2:I know, if you're gonna show up like such a numpty at least I've said numpty like 10,000 times so I think it's because she said like, if you're, if you're gonna show up like such an idiot all this time, you've got to come out with a letter like that. You know, you you need to take when most letter is a blueprint, because realistically, I don't think anything else applies. So you've got to be vulnerable and open your feelings to that point. I'd apologize if you need to, because I think Frank really needed to apologize. Jane's terrible. Yeah, you can't just be like business as usual. I don't have been horrible for like ages, but it's fine. No, it's not fine Disrespectful, it's so disrespectful.
Speaker 1:And Wentworth, you can just tell he's a very. He has a lot of emotional depth, he has a lot of emotional like emotional volatility is the way I would describe it. And so it's not right how he talks about Ann behind her back, but you can tell it's it comes from this defensive lens. Right, like Ann, we rejected him and, just like you said, ann hasn't given him anything. They're not engaged, so he's actively trying to get over her. So I forgive that more than Frank Churchill, just like you said, he's actively engaged to Jane and I don't really think he has that same level of emotional depth. I think he likes to keep himself entertained and is more jokey. And so anyway, yes, I think Jane Fairfax went through a lot and I think she deserved some kind of big overture, and maybe we didn't, maybe there was one and we didn't see it, but I kind of doubt it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think so. I'm just like, no, not on Wentworth's level anyway. But I love what you said about like the fact that he's got so much emotional depth and that does make the difference, I think, because Ann doesn't give in anything. I think he is fighting his feelings. I think he genuinely is actively trying to court Louise, but at the same time he's constantly facing Ann at the same time. So it must be like really difficult. He's like I need to make something work with somebody, but then he's seeing Ann constantly and it's just reminding him like how much he loves her. So it's like you know that conflict inside him. I mean he must go for a lot of emotional turmoil. Let's give him that.
Speaker 2:So you know him turning up a bit angsty and saying a couple of bad things behind a back. Maybe we should let him off slightly for that, just because he's probably going through a lot internally where he's like maybe even just like on a self-worth level, because he's been rejected in the past by this person. He's still got feelings for her, doesn't know if she feels the same, and he's constantly being faced with her every single day. What Ann goes through, I would argue that is mirrored the same of what Wentworth's going through. You know he's probably having all of that same emotional turmoil, that pain and everything, and him actively courting Louise isn't so different than Ann spending a lot of time with Mr Elliot. You know they both do partake in kind of flirting and exploring things with other people in each other's presence and you can't blame I've rubbed them for it because they don't talk about their feelings for each other until the very end. So you know, like what are you gonna do?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, just as you're talking about all of his inner turmoil and how we don't we don't get his lens the way we get Ann's, but we know he's feeling the same way, I'm like, oh, I'm so happy that you're reading Persuasion Next for the book club, and I just had this moment of wanting to also acknowledge that this year you've not only started the Patreon and just how amazing that's been to have those extra resources and all that's gone into that, but then also that you've started the Jane Austen book club as well. So you've done a lot with the podcast and just with the Jane Austen community this year, and that is definitely to be celebrated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think sometimes it's easy to forget, like I feel like a lot of the time, if I take something off, then I'm just like right, what's the next thing, what's the next thing? And I don't take enough time to sit and be like actually like you've come so far, like you know you're doing a lot of work, like you're doing well, it's cool, you've got this. So yeah, and I love everybody on the Patreon and obviously everyone on the Patreon's in the book club. So, yes, I absolutely love the book club group amazing, we have the best time together. So I really appreciate that and you're very welcome to join. Anybody listening join the Patreon and then you're automatically added to the book club.
Speaker 2:We chat on a Facebook page so we share pictures and just like thoughts throughout the month and then we meet up at the end of each month to discuss what we've read so far. So we either read a chapter per month, we either read a volume per month, or we read a certain amount of chapters per month, basically the equivalent. So yeah, and we're on persuasion at the moment. So by the time this episode comes out, we will be on. I think we'll be on like chapter 10 of persuasion. So, yeah, you're very welcome to join if you want to. What do you want to move on to talking about next?
Speaker 1:You know this is. I guess we're just sort of jumping around, but I really just also wanted to name that I love that you're promoting new authors work that are connected to the Jane Austen community and I just and House of Bennett as well. I just I love that you're helping people in the Jane Austen community and, I have to be honest, it's helped me with my Christmas list, so I'm going to be buying the. Oh my gosh, I loved the names of all of them. What is it again? So it's Pride and Premeditation, premeditation.
Speaker 2:Yes, pride and Premeditation. There's Manslota Park and Sense and Second Degree Med. Are they just? Tiz is genius. Honestly, I love them.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh okay let's okay, I want to just tell you let's do that episode next. But yeah, so I'm. I loved those names. I was cackling when I was reading those names, particularly Manslaughter Park and the fact that you said it was your favorite, and I just want to say how much of a feat that is, because I know Mansfield Park is not your favorite. Traditionally, fanny has not been your favorite, so I loved that that was your favorite in the series. And I was thinking about my mom, and my mom loves Jane Austen, but she also loves she loves like mysteries and fantasy and different things, and I was like, oh my gosh, I am going to. So I'm going to get those three books for my mom for Christmas. And then I'm also getting the Jane Aust for one of my best friends, my best friend, lily. Hopefully she does it. This will be coming out after I don't know one that she probably won't listen to.
Speaker 2:I can't before, but it's fine, I'll be there. I'll be there Getting it for people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she'll probably hear it after Christmas, it's fine. Anyway, I just think that's really cool that you're doing that and I think it's going to pay off and help other people in the Jane Austen community get connected to those works.
Speaker 2:I hope so. I love the community so much. It's like I love it when we can come together and collaborate. I think that's so amazing. Obviously, house of Bennett is my sponsor and has been for the whole year so far. I think so, and that's amazing. And Alina was obviously. She was on an episode a while back to, the Christmas themed episode where we did like a Christmas gift guide wonderful woman. And she's got this fantastic shop where she like celebrates all of literature. So, yes, obviously I'll have like a midway point and it's probably like come out now where I just talk about House of Bennett so you'll be able to use my code and obviously that would be awesome. You know it's great for Christmas gifts. Any of the books that I've recommended will be on my Bookshop org account, so feel free to find them there. Yeah, tears of price episode I love that so much.
Speaker 2:I read that Manslaughter Park oh my gosh, what a book. Honestly read that in one sitting. I was sat in a coffee shop and I read it just in one go. And what's really funny as well, which was it was amazing that I had the opportunity to do this, but tears of scent that to me before it was published. So I was reading the kind of like proof copy or like manuscript copy on my laptop, because it was in PDF form, because there wasn't one to send out yet. So, yeah, so I was reading it on my laptop. So it wasn't even, like you know, like in a book, consuming a book easier than it is seen on the screen. So I read it once sitting and I read it on my laptop screen. So I was that invested in this storyline. I thought it was fantastic. I really enjoyed it. So, and like Kaylee said, I don't enjoy Mansfield Park. So that is you know saying something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, listening to that episode was such a treat. I loved hearing her process and how she went about writing the books, what she was inspired by. My gosh, what are my notes here? Oh, so many exclamation points. I said you love Mansfield Park the most. She made you love that book. That's huge. I also I loved her comments on the Francis O'Connor version of Mansfield Park, the 1999 version, that that when is hot and steamy, between funny and mad.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And also Edmund. Edmund is portrayed in a lot better of a light in that movie, like he actually. I really like his character in that adaptation. He's less pompous and controlling, but yeah, yeah, francis O'Connor just does a brilliant job as Fanny. And then I remember seeing that adaptation and and going back and reading Mansfield Park and I was like I didn't see the electricity between Mary and Fanny in the novel but it's palpable and very well done in the adaptation. So when Terza said that that she did find that in the novel, I kept wanting to ask, I kept thinking, oh my gosh, where is she finding these parts? And I want to go back and read them. So yeah, that was one thing I wanted to note too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think a lot of it comes from like I feel like Fanny and Mary like make such a good like enemy to love a story, because I feel like Mary actually just show up so much for Fanny and wants to be there and like deliver everything, but obviously Fanny has so much turmoil around Mary because she has feelings for Edmund and Edmund likes Mary. So yeah, it's like anyway, awesome, awesome book, love the dynamic. I thought it was amazing. Do you want to move on to some of the? Oh, there was another one actually that we should probably mention and that was the Mr Nightly episode, which I know Mr Nightly is your favorite.
Speaker 1:So where do I even start? Yeah, I missed her nightly. I was so glad you did an episode on him and I mean there aren't enough good things to say about Mr Nightly and I thought you both did such a great job with that. I think the commentary on how psychic he kind of is, like how much he's able to predict certain dynamics and before they happen, how much he's able to see, I think he of anyone really absorbs how much societally they're trying to push Frank towards Emma and he is taking care of Jane Fairfax because he seems to have this unconscious sense If something's going to Does she suffer in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's. I think he senses when other like I think because he's suffering about that, because he is obviously is realizing his feelings for Emma, I think he can sense this similar dynamic in Jane, like it's interesting that they gravitate together. But doesn't that make so much sense? You're like attracts, like you do gravitate to people who are going through something similar to you and I think, yeah, that's that makes so much sense to me that he becomes kind of this kind of protector of Jane. And also Mr Nightly is such a gentleman.
Speaker 2:You know that's why we called the night. You know why we should night Mr Nightly, because he is such a gentleman. If he sees a woman suffering, he will be there, he will show up as a protector. And you know, I mean he does that for Emma so often when Emma's honestly like blind to some of the stuff going on, he is there and he's like concerned because he's like Emma, I don't want you to want you up as a bad person or two. I don't want people taking advantage of you. I love that for him.
Speaker 1:And how he cares for for Mrs Bates too. He, he has such a sense of propriety and decorum, but he will. He'll definitely stand up when he sees something that's wrong, a wrong that's going on. And yeah, I mean, how was it for you to to be able to have a whole episode to speak about him?
Speaker 2:What was interesting about that one is I think that was the biggest or like the, I think he was the most prominent character character study I've done so far, because I usually focus on one new one's characters. I'm trying to think of somebody else, but I think Mr Nightly is probably one of the more popular characters that I've actually addressed, because even Jane Bennett I know she's a popular character but she's not one of the main two characters, if that makes sense. So, yeah, that was it was. So it was kind of a scary feat to go into. You know, that's probably why I've not now addressed like Mr Doss yet, because I feel like you could keep readdressing it because you'd have so many different thoughts.
Speaker 2:But I really enjoyed it and I really love the conversation around like stewardship, the way that Mr Nightly is a leader of society, that he shows up a few people of all different classes that he really is supportive of. Like we were saying before about women being supportive of women. Jane Austen is a master of writing supportive men like men who are supportive of other men who protect, like the women in the society, and I love that because Mr Nightly shows up for, obviously, people like Robert Martin and William Larkin. These are people on his estate who were just. They work for him and he invests so much time and energy into their well being and so that they can grow as people and get promoted. And he puts so much trust and faith in these people and because of that he has so much loyalty.
Speaker 2:Like people gravitate to him and you know he's like either one. Isn't he in society the person you want to be around? And I think that's what he doesn't like about Frank, because Frank doesn't have the same honor as he does and Mr Nightly sees straight through that. He is like no, this is nota gentleman. This is not how a gentleman shows up. And yeah, he's right.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned that because now that you say that, looking back, that was one of my favorite parts when you two were talking about that. Because you're right, think about Mrs Bates' status and how he stands up for her honor, and then think about when Emma is being so snobby about Mr Martin and Mr Nightly defends Mr Martin and actually challenges Emma and says you know what, actually I think he's out of her league and I really respect him. He just says generally too. Just I've never heard better sense from someone than Robert Martin. Like he really views people for who they are as a human and looks at their characters outside of this idea of status, which is one way that I really, really I know.
Speaker 2:Well, that's such an attractive quality. Let's be clear oh my gosh, yes, it needs such an advocate for people who are in lower social classes at that time, like the working classes, literally, just like. I will make sure that you're making it in life and I think it's fab. Yeah, I love Mr Nightly. I mean, what can we say? We can talk about Mr Nightly forever. He's absolutely ace. Do you want to move on to one of the Halloweeny episodes? We could do the monk that I did with, or we should do Mrs Bennett. Oh my gosh, no, let's do that one first. So I did an episode on Mrs Bennett with Habiba. Do you remember?
Speaker 1:that one.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, yes, yes so good and that was so good because it was so good to get into the similarities between a lot of the dynamics in like Regency England and Desi culture and everything, so that was amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you guys, there were so many good character studies this time around too. Yeah, the Mrs Bennett episode was fantastic. I'm looking at my notes here. I really like that you named in the different adaptations. You compared the 1995 adaptation to the 2005 adaptation and how she's portrayed, and I really I wouldn't have said this myself, but I really agree with it and liked how you mentioned that the 2005 version of Pride and Prejudice. Mrs Bennett is portrayed as less fragile, less overtly Anxious and how that makes things a little bit different. And I also, when you said that, I was like oh, another difference too is in the 2005 version Mrs Bennett and Mr Bennett are still a little bit more affectionate with each other, even though they're still, you know, they're still the dynamic that he's like oh, my tiresome wife. There is still a little bit more affection versus the 1995 version where she is just all in her nerves and constantly needing her smelling salts and everything. So I found that really interesting to listen to.
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that, oh my goodness. Yeah, she was a really interesting character to talk about. And because I feel like both portrayals of her and the adaptations are so good that it was so good to talk about that as well. The way that she comes across in those and the way that the actors approach the character, because I do think they take slightly different approaches but it works, yes, fascinating. And also the sympathy I was surprised the sympathy that I actually have for Mrs Bennett now. She doesn't have the easiest situation at all and, yeah, I just have so much more sympathy for now as a character.
Speaker 1:Totally. I was so happy that the two of you talked about that because, yeah, I used to watch it as a little girl and I was like, oh, mrs Bennett is so ridiculous and as I get older I relate to her more and more and I think it's easy to scapegoat and pathologize her. But and Mr Bennett's way of coping with life is to kind of laugh at her and scorn her a little bit. But if Mr Bennett had gotten his act together with finances, with saving money, with getting their affairs in order, mrs Bennett might have been in a less anxious state and she knows the reality of what's going to happen to the estate and what's going to happen to them if, when Mr Bennett passes away. So I don't know. I think there's this dynamic where Mr Bennett isn't taking accountability and he's just sort of acting like she's anxious for no reason.
Speaker 1:And I also liked. I liked the point made where she she wanted to throw herself. She in that for that time didn't have a position to throw herself into her career or into other opportunities, and so her ambition and her passion was to throw herself into helping her daughters launch themselves. And I'm not saying she always went about it in the best way, like sending her daughter to get sick on a horseback. That was probably not the best, but she was doing everything she could, even though she made mistakes. She was doing everything she could, she could to launch her daughter's lives, and that is something to be commended.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of the sympathy that I have for her falls and the fact that went like the time period as well, because I think Mrs Bennett makes me appreciate so much more that we don't have to just like marry somebody straight away, like when we're 16 or have you, that we can take the time to build our own characters, learn what our own values are set in place, our own boundaries with people, like all of these things are things that Mrs Bennett wasn't able to curate and because of that, her relationship with her husband is just so messy.
Speaker 2:And I think you can see this as well, because think about how strong and how good Elizabeth's boundaries are and the way that she shows up and how much respect Mr Bennett has for her in comparison than his wife is really interesting. I think, and I think that's yeah, that's that difference there that Mrs Bennett does. She constantly comes across as is the victim and is obviously dwelling in like all the crisis all the time, and I think all of this is because she's not had that time to develop her own character, because she was married so young. You know what I mean. She was married at 16. She didn't have those few extra years to start working on herself Like Jane, I think, is like 25, 26 by the time, so she's had a good decent amount more time, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think I think Jane's 23. Elizabeth is 21. But yeah, and that's wow when you say that. That's exactly right. I even think in other novels people like Mrs Jennings glorify getting married young. Oh, like I was married when I was 15. That's what I wanted for my daughters. So Mrs Bennett probably thought she was winning by getting married really young. But then actually Elizabeth had more of a luxury to set boundaries and to mature into who she was before she found her partner. So that does portray Mrs Bennett in a more compassionate light. And I think one other thing that I was really smiling about that you guys were talking about during this episode was when Mrs Bennett is yelling at Elizabeth for having qualities that she has, like with the whole Mr Collins thing, like she's yelling at Elizabeth for being so headstrong and it's like, really, mrs.
Speaker 1:Bennett, you're gonna yell at someone else for being headstrong about stuff, so that's very funny and that's talk about Jane Austen highlighting human nature. That's such a trend for people to not like characteristics of other people that they themselves don't like in themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how often does that happen as well? How easy is it for us to project our own insecurities on other people, like if somebody does something and it's triggering, usually they say that means there's something within you. What is it within you that that's triggered? So I think that's super interesting that she has such qualms about some of Elizabeth's personality traits when actually those are the traits that are so similar to our own. It's just just fascinating to think about. I just want to quickly reference the Taylor Swift episodes, because I did a whole series of that with Anne and Martha. That was so much fun to do and Taylor's like she's racking out stuff all the time now.
Speaker 2:Absolutely love the Volt tracks on the 1989 re-release Honestly so, so good. Two ones that I love. I love Now we Don't Talk and Say Don't Go or something like that. I can't remember the exact name of it, but honestly I listen to these songs and repeat so good, absolutely love. And I just love that we're getting so much Taylor Swift content and I have Aira's tickets, which are absolutely over the moon for some going next year in London. I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh that's going to be amazing oh that's amazing.
Speaker 2:I'm so excited.
Speaker 1:I love that you made a playlist too, that you made the playlist. Yeah, wasn't that fun. I don't know if anybody listened to it, but I thought it was fun to make. I love that you have that playlist and for me it's really fun to. For some reason, I always think of Mary Ann Dashwood and what Taylor Swift songs she would most resonate with. I tend to love the slower paced, more melancholy Taylor Swift songs and so many of those I connect with Mary Ann and so I remember that was really validating, thinking about hearing the ones that you all thought were associated with Mary Ann and many of them were the more like, just slower paced. I've lost my love and will everything be okay?
Speaker 1:And will I ever be the same again? Type vibe, and those are the songs of hers that I always connect with the most.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what I always love about the crossover episodes as well is there's so many different things that we're all passionate about them. When we come together, we're talking about it. So we love Jane Austen, but then we compare it with something else that we love and it just there's so much like good energy. It's just amazing, like when we do our like Harry Potter episodes, it always feels that way. Obviously, this Taylor Swift ones, the Disney ones that I did with Ann honestly, that was so good, I loved it so much. So, yeah, I always love doing the crossover episodes because it just is able to bring in another aspect of my personality and the guest personality and it's fun. I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I again, that's a testament to the versatility of the podcast too. Like you know, I it's nice to have a standard following of people listening to all the episodes, but it's also great when you know some people might not be Taylor Swift fans or Harry Potter fans and you don't have to listen to those episodes, but it's. It's so amazing how versatile your podcast is and it's fun to come in and and meld two different passions together. It's not, you know, it's connected to Jane Austen, but it's also a time to connect over another passion. I just think that's so cool and you know, I wanted to name an elephant in the room Maybe for surrounding the Harry Potter episodes, and yeah, I just think it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's important to say that it can be maybe labeled as controversial to be talking about Harry Potter in light of the comments made that are that are trans, transphobic, and I guess my response to that is I think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think if there was anything transphobic in Harry Potter, in the story, that would be something I would not feel comfortable talking about in a podcast. But I felt like it was important to show up authentically with my experience and that Harry Potter was a really formative story for me growing up and helped give me permission to show up who I authentically as who I authentically am. I've often listened to it, falling asleep at night. It's my safe place, and I've actually talked to a bunch of my friends in the LGBTQ community about this.
Speaker 1:Thinking about this, thinking, you know, should I be speaking about Harry Potter? What are your thoughts about that? I never want to come across as doing something that could be hurtful, and I've actually gotten a lot of responses saying you know what? I am trans and also Harry Potter has been so formative in my life and I want to be able to be a trans person who still talks about Harry Potter and loves Harry Potter, and Harry Potter helped emphasize that I can show up and be myself, and so I don't want to. I don't want to have to distance myself from that story. So is it okay that we talk about the story and the parts that that we love, that uplift us? So I don't know your thoughts about that, but I just really wanted to name that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think you know I spent the whole year in turmoil about that. We recorded that at the start of the year. I spent the whole year back and forth. I didn't know whether or not I was going to put the content out. Obviously, I did the other Harry Potter episodes which you know some people who know me they were just like, yeah, you know you like Harry Potter, we know that you're a good person, we know that you support the LGBTQ plus community and all this lot and like we don't see this as, like you know, you're doing something really negative or harmful or anything.
Speaker 2:But there was other people who felt differently and I totally respect that, their viewpoints as well and I never intend to go out and hurt people. And you know, I spent the year chatting to like my close family members who are trans, friends who are trans, and being like, is this the right thing? Putting this out there? I don't know. And the conclusion that I came with with them was and for me, with like my close family members, I don't want to be, I don't want to showcase to them that it's wrong to love something that they already love, like if my trans family member and friends like they love Harry Potter. Who am I to turn around to them and say that they can't talk about it and can't love it, in that by doing so they're somehow going against their own community. I don't want to showcase that. I want to show that you can be supportive and still love literature that you love. You know it's it's.
Speaker 2:It was a hard, really hard decision for me whether or not I was going to put it out there. But, like I said, I want to show up authentically. You want to show up authentically and it is something that we do equally love. I try and make sure that we're not in any way, you know, supporting financially like JK Rowling, like if you can buy the book secondhand and stuff that's like massive. And you know, I wouldn't say to anybody that they can't go to the studios. I mean to the studios and everything. But I think it's just being a respectful and ethical consumer of that kind of content. Now, just to make sure that you're not causing harm to the trans community in the way that you approach it. But in our episode, I mean, we don't even mention the author, to be perfectly honest with you. We solely focus on the text itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's very purposeful too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, definitely 100%. Do you want to talk a little bit about the Mary Crawford episode and then the Munk episode? Okay, both are great episodes. The Mary Crawford episode, equally very controversial oh my goodness, I got some weird backlash on that one. Oh my days. Some people loved it, some people hated it.
Speaker 2:Some people are very funny pro-fanny, which totally fine, totally get it, and really don't like Mary Crawford and took particular dislike to the fact that me and Charlie were so pro Mary Crawford. So that was interesting. It wasn't expected to be such a dynamic conversation outside of the podcast, but I love doing episodes with Charlie and I want to be completely clear Me and Charlie like the way, like our friendship we do just have like this fun banter back and forth. You know we're sarcastic, we laugh about like these things A lot of the time. We are joking around. Like I say, out of all the character studies, the ones that me and Charlie do are the ones not to take so seriously, because we are just having fun and joking around and we do appreciate a lot of the characteristics of Mary Crawford, but not in any way did we want to say that you know anybody who likes fannies in the wrong guy. But yeah, we just wanted to highlight Mary's positive aspects.
Speaker 1:So much of what you said. So I purposely choose to listen to your episodes with Charlie when I'm like I'm in the mood to laugh, because you really do. There's such a lighthearted banter that the two of you have. That's so nice to listen to and you're laughing so much of the episode. You're both just so excited and entertained about what you're talking about and it's very contagious. So love that.
Speaker 1:I think it's good for to have a strong response from from the, from the audience. You know some people defending fanny, some people defending Mary. I think that means it's a really good topic and I've seen that division to before and I guess my thoughts are I like that. You took that stance promoting Mary Crawford and it's not the not it's not the first time I've heard that. She kind of reminds me of what Julia mentioned liking and Lucy steel, which is Mary Crawford is a woman who knows what she wants and she's going to be more direct than maybe what was the way of showing propriety for the time. She's going to be more direct about what she wants and she's going to go after it and I think that is main character energy and so I can see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my friend Lily says that she really likes Mary Crawford more than fanny because she admire someone who knows their mind and speaks their mind, and I think a counter to that is is that I, fanny, does know her mind to. When it comes down to participating in the play, she decides I'm not doing this, this is not morally right. So she does know her own mind, but she doesn't. She, she doesn't speak up as much as Mary does. And Mary, you both, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think fanny has the same platform as Mary to speak up, which I think is why she doesn't show up as such a strong character. And I know Mary makes a lot of mistakes at the end, like she does some weird stuff at the end, you know. But I think for a lot of the books she does show up as a woman's woman, like she is so supportive of fanny, like she is always there, she is trying to help fanny and yeah, she's. I just really like her for a lot of the book. I know when it comes to the end and she gets really upset that you know her brothers run off with my right and she kind of blames fanny for not marrying Henry, which it's not funny fault at all that Henry goes off with.
Speaker 2:But I also understand, like in the heat of the moment you know she's so close with her brother and sometimes you do say like really random stuff that you just like, oh, that's a slightly dramatic. But when you feel an emotional attachment to it and you're like, well, this is my brother, like I'm devastated that this has happened, and you maybe just make random comments that you don't actually mean, I can't say whether or not very really meant them, and I know she says all this stuff like because if Tom died, because then he, then Edmund, would be the heir to the fortune. I'm not being funny. Edmund falls for Mary for a reason, and I would say it's because they have those core characteristic traits that are similar In one of those her saying. That, I think, is something that's very similar in rooted in Edmund as well, because, let's be clear, edmund makes out like he's trying to care for fanny, and how many times does he just discard her whenever he feels like it? They both have dark sides and I think that's why they're so drawn to each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my gosh, that's right. Yes, I completely agree with that. I think it is Mary, so charming and so she comes across as so dynamic. She has such charisma, she has such character, so she is very likable. But she's ambitious and I think we see, we absolutely see her ambition reaching this very toxic breaking point. When she's talking about how it would be better if Tom died, it's like, oh wow, that is that is bad and it's so. It is true, it's a shared quality with Edmund, while he doesn't. But also, she's not lying, is she?
Speaker 2:If Tom died, that would improve her situation. I know it's awful, but she's just quite practical and literally just like. That does actually improve a lot of people's situations and the grand scheme of things. But I know it's awful, like it's terrible and you wouldn't want someone to die or anything like that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's very uncomfortable, she's not wrong, but it's very uncomfortable to say and was horrible to say, especially given his condition and everything. But yeah, I mean she also, she drops Tom right, like she drops interest in Tom right away and, even though Edmund loves you know, comes back to Fanny, he does have that same, those same qualities where he shows such love for Fanny and then is kind of fly by the wind, discards her for a while or ignores her. So I think that's a really good point that they share a similar characteristic.
Speaker 2:I think they're both survivors as well, like I don't mean survivors, like they've gone through something necessarily tragic, but they both are scrounging a lot of the time, like Mary's. That's why she like goes to Edmund and then she's really invested in like trying to make it work. She's trying to say to him like look, do you not have bigger ambitions, because I can't possibly marry a clergyman. Is there not something else that you want to do? Like we could have this better life and all this lot?
Speaker 2:And I feel like Edmund like he shows up as like head of the household when his brother doesn't show up, you know, and he's like they're trying to figure things out and I get things sorted. He gives up his inheritance or like the, the vicarage or whatever, so that they can pay off like Tom's debts and stuff. Like him and Mary really do, like they probably would have made like quite an intense power couple. I think that they both come across like they do have dark energies and both of them are like that. I think both of them are pretty corrupt. The fact that Edmund becomes a clergyman is actually kind of funny to me, because the guy does not have very strong morals. So I think, together though they would be a pretty dynamic power couple.
Speaker 1:Do you think that Edmund is as ambitious and calculated as Mary is?
Speaker 2:No, but with Mary. I think the two of them together had they joined forces with Mary's ambition in like Edmund's like I don't know like need to please Mary or like he is. He's kind of ambition is in his own way, though, you know, he's like, oh, I want to be seen in a certain light and like I don't know. I can't really describe him. Honestly, I can't stand the guy. He's just so fickle and just like weird. I think he would easily go along with Mary's stuff, but I think they'd have like angsty arguments. I can see it being some sort of like dark fantasy, like sexy novel, but two of them together, you know, think they have like such heated debates and arguments, but then they're like so intense at the same time, so attracted to each other.
Speaker 1:I think she is more consistently ambitious and calculated, whereas he kind of feels like two different people at sometimes. Pardon me, he's like does he have some kind of diet? It's like I think he will lean into that ambition and will get swept up by by by Mary's Mary's ambition and charm and everything. But then I think he comes down and he has this other side where he really appreciates Fanny's morals and I think I don't think he would want to be with Mary long term. I don't think he would stay with her and respect her.
Speaker 2:I do think he would stay with Mary long term, not because he'd disrespect her, but because he couldn't control her. That's why I think he chooses Fanny. I genuinely don't think he could bear to be with Mary, because he knows that Mary will be so independent that she will always do what's best for Mary. He would constantly be the one running behind. I think with Mary, if he didn't show up on full form constantly, he would have to.
Speaker 2:I think this might be controversial, but I think this is the difference between a man going for his dream woman and the good enough woman, because I think that with Mary say, she was his dream woman he would constantly have to show up as not his best self by our standard, but his best self by her standard. I mean, he would have to go for the higher job as a lawyer or something else. He'd have to be going to all these social events. They'd need more money than what he was originally going to go for. However, fanny doesn't care. She just wants to love him and worship him constantly and just be there for him. And what have you? And that's the easier option for Edmund to do, that he doesn't have to put any effort in for Fanny whatsoever, because he's not done any so far and she still loves him, so married, why do you need to put any more extra effort in? He doesn't Okay.
Speaker 1:So you think that he likes the idea of being with Fanny because he knows he'll be top dog and can control her and everything and he won't have to challenge himself to be better to be with Mary and yeah, okay, but he.
Speaker 2:That is my theory.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I'm like, okay, I need to go back and reread Mansfield Park again. I keep needing to do it because I think that I view Edmund in a little bit more of a favorable light than you do, and I want to.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I just had a new episode topic. Then Maybe we should do the Mansfield Park debate and it's like you need to reread Mansfield Park and then like we come together and we're just like what is going on, because I feel like we really yeah, let's do this, because I don't, I don't think Edmund is as bad as he is.
Speaker 2:I cannot stand that guy. Honestly, I wouldn't even put him in here or category if I had the choice. I don't even know what it is. This is why we've got to do a who would you date and who wouldn't you date, and why? Because I feel like I can go home on Edmund. There were so many reasons I would not date that guy. He has such a red flag to me.
Speaker 1:That's so funny, I wouldn't date Mr Ferris.
Speaker 2:Anyway, we'll get to that later.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we need to do that episode.
Speaker 2:I think so. Shall we talk about the monk episode then, before we wrap up the one that I did with Martha, where we did the Monk by Matthew Lewis Wild Book. Oh my goodness, I love doing these ones with Martha though, because it's just so fun. I take so much. I have such a deeper understanding of Austin's text by reading the contemporaries of her time Also. They're really interesting books. You think they were stuffy and boring, but they're really not. They are Next level. This book was wild.
Speaker 1:Izzy, I was listening. I need you to know that I took notes on all the episodes for the Monk. It's an entire page. I started listening. Oh my God, what that happened. I keep pausing it. How did we get to this? Now there's a haunted nun coming in the fifth day of the fifth month just terrorizing people. It just kept building. Honestly, one of the funniest parts is Martha's so great to have on because, no matter what's happening, she is so good. She's so calm, cool, collected, communicating things very clearly and, matter of fact, it's easy to follow when she's saying some of this stuff. I am cracking up and I was like how can she keep a straight face right now? Your reactions were like I was laughing so much. It was so satisfying when Martha got to the point where she was talking about Flora and the closet situation and she started cackling what's up to you? I went, izzy, I just listened to the episode the Monk episode with you and Martha. Are you both doing okay? There's a lot happening here. I would need recovery time after reading that.
Speaker 2:I just love it. Martha has such good retention in the books as well. I don't think I could possibly do it with anyone else, because I read it and I forget certain stuff. That's happened. Martha always keeps me on track because she's like no, this happened just before that. I'm like that's important. We need to mention that. Oh my God, I was reading it. I was reading this book in a coffee shop. I saw there was a CCTV camera in the corner and I was so aware that my facial I was laughing at one point. Then I'm putting the books and I'm like, oh my God, it was. After that I realized the camera was there and I was like, if anybody watches this footage back, I'm going to look like the weirdest person ever so, engrossed in this book between laughing and being like, oh my gosh, what is happening. But some of the things the thing with Matilda where she just rips open her top why is it happening? And then a snake comes out of her top.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, I cannot believe you brought that up first, because I will. Anyone watching this if you look closely. That is my first note. It says top being ripped open, standing there exposed, so creepy he's like. Well, I'm aroused. That was the very first note I wrote down, being like I'm sorry, can we unpack this?
Speaker 2:Think about me reading it. I'm reading it. It was all kind of like she's just saying I have feelings for you and you're going to have to go away because I'm a monk and all this lot is all chill. And then it's like zero to 100. She is like, well, she says I'm going to un-alive myself. And he's like, no, no, no, don't do that. That's very traumatic. And she's like you think she's going to un-alive herself, but really what she does is she just rips her top open so she's exposed to him in this car.
Speaker 1:I was just like. This is not to be believed. What?
Speaker 2:is that Cracks me up. It was bizarre. And then the thought there was a snake in her top. I'm so confused. I'm so confused. I get the garden of Eden reference, but I'm also just like yeah, like this is double symbolism or whatever, but it's just.
Speaker 1:I mean this actually might be funny to just. I have sort of disjointed notes and it'll be a cue for my brain. But let's see so, top ripped open with a knife standing there exposed, so creepy. Then he says he's aroused. I just put Raymond's drama dot dot dot. I said aunt who is married but mad guy doesn't love her and then banishes Sorry, heard of a nunnery, I like why she's in love with him, sends Agnes away. Then I put random haunting nun bones lying on the towel, wives being held hostage, killing people. The branch, the branch, like the branch was really freaking me out. Oh my God.
Speaker 2:This is what I mean. The book was mad. It was so mad and I was so concerned as well. I hope it made sense because when I was listening to it back, I was like this sounds like an intense true crime podcast episode, Like what I'm describing. It's so bizarre. But I was like I hope it's like making sense what I'm describing as well, because I know, it's so bizarre.
Speaker 1:I mean it was making sense how you two were describing it, but it was highly bizarre and I was like what's that? It actually made me think, yeah. Another note I have further down is Catherine. How did she have access to this? Because I know it was Ray and I said. Such bad things happen to women. I could see Lydia sneak reading this and I know Catherine didn't have as much supervision from parents et cetera. But would Emma Woodhouse have been allowed to read a novel like this? Or did Elizabeth or Jane read this? Because there's so much like sex, rape, incest, so much violence towards women that it's like I'm just curious how widespread this was that these heroines could read novels like this.
Speaker 2:I know Because we've done the Mysteries of Udolpho the year prior. I didn't know what to expect necessarily with this one, but when I started reading it I was like it's giving me Mysteries of Udolpho vibes, same energy. But how dark this one got was just so surprising to me and I thought the same. I was like how was this even in publication at the time? Because it is so like me and Marfa were saying obviously we're in a modern audience. You're exposed to so much more on telly, on the news, just generally you're exposed to so much more. But it was hard to read the latter parts of the book and it was just intense and terrifying in like the worst kind of way. A great book to read. Because I was like, wow, this is. It's good to know that this kind of stuff was out there. Because I feel like you can take a different approach.
Speaker 2:This is something very much that Annie was talking about in the episode we did about the lost sex scenes with Jane Austen and everything is. It's easy to get caught up in thinking that this was a very innocent time period, but actually very much the opposite. I think the way that we see that is because when we read in prejudice. We're exposed to innocent characters, like characters who are very moral and upstanding, but actually what was going on in the world was just like wild, like the politics, like prostitution at the time is like rife. There was so much corruption in the church there was obviously not corruption, but then there were stories about corruption because there was the Catholic Protestant like dynamic and debate and I mean, oh, and I think what for me as well, it was difficult to understand is this guy's where he stood with anything. This guy was a teenager when he wrote this. This is intense book for a teenager to write. What was he exposed to is the question to even write this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh my gosh, when you were, when you were both talking about that, and particularly at the end it was, it was very interesting to hear both of your reactions and it sounds like you both agreed it was an extremely well written book, very valuable book to read, and the content and the male entitlement was so harrowing and off-putting and I think I thought I really I remember when both of you were talking about how the scariest thing that happened in this book were not the bones lying in a tunnel, were not the, the, the ghost, blood nun or whatever, were not all of these gothic elements, it was the entitlement of of men just not treating women right, like objectifying women and gaslighting women and treating them as if their desires or their needs didn't matter or their boundaries didn't matter.
Speaker 2:It's very much I am lusting after you and yeah, just yeah, the disrespect in the entitlement and so, yeah, yes, and like the polarizing different women, female characters as well, like you have, like Matilda, who was just like this seductress and I was, like you know, an active witch and like was doing all this stuff and she was like posed to being like super negative and all of this which is so funny because in a modern day context, she wouldn't necessarily be seen as like this terrible, negative person. Like lots of women have casual relationships nowadays, women practice all kinds of different crafts, you know, including witchcraft. I'm literally just like wow, like the emphasis on how like terribly she was in comparison to I can't remember a name but the other character who was like this embodiment of innocence who suffered so much for it. This is why I was so confused by what the guy's point was.
Speaker 2:Like the author, I was like what are you trying to tell me here? Because you know, sometimes I'm like you know what is the? The moral of the story is such like what are you trying to tell me with the story? Maybe you wasn't trying to say anything, but I was literally just like it was bizarre. There was no clean answer that I could be like this is his view on life. I think it was him trying to work out his view on life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean when you, when you said that this was basically like an adolescent, a teenage author, I was like what was, what was he exposed to and what were the mores? Because I definitely was of the opinion because of reading Pride and Prejudice and so many novels from the Regency area that portray that deemphasize anything to do with sex. Yeah, this is, this is a shock. This is a shock to to read something like this.
Speaker 1:And even though when I was listening to the episode on what was the one called about sexuality in the last sex scenes, when I was listening to different parts of Mr Mr Darcy and Lizzie fooling around and I was like I don't know why for me I I wouldn't be able to read something like that, but I did see the comedic effect, I could see how people would love it and I understand wanting to rate. I want, I understand wanting to write sex scenes from the perspective of women, to kind of re reclaim that women can have a sex, have a sexuality, and that women can have a say and what happens with sex. Because I do think so much, so much of the story like in this story it's all about how sex is for men and how women don't get a say, and so I think, yeah, I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what I really liked about it could show that actually, like you know, a desire in sexual relationships or, you know, being more confident in that stance is still feminine, like you don't have to, you know. I mean because I feel like sometimes there's an emphasis that's like a real masculine energy, and I don't think that should be necessarily the case. So I really liked that it. The Los Act scenes even though that was a bizarre read in its own right, I appreciate that it's still, like you know, tried to capture the essence of the characters and that, you know, someone like Elizabeth was maybe a little bit more. I think it did capture the essence of the characters.
Speaker 2:But, to be honest with you, I think the scenes that they chose, like Emma being the chosen one who's like masturbating and she's just like living her best single life, like I love that for her Do you know what I mean? And I think the book made a lot of sense and worked in so many ways. It wasn't I didn't, I wasn't vibing with it that much, but I think, because it was just like so many innuendos, I was literally just like friend, like Adrol would just like give me an explicit sexy. What am I reading here, like you're talking about the weather and also like something I'm like. What am I having to decode this? Is that with the lost sex scenes, or is not?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's okay to be like. You know that's maybe that's not for me. I don't want to. I don't really want to read innuendos or sex scenes with for J for my like view or for my reading of Jane Austen, but it doesn't mean that it can't be like a great thing for other people.
Speaker 2:I know, I know. So true, I mean, we've not picked our next book yet, but I'm really excited to do that episode again because I do love reading these well, these, like Catherine Mullen reads, so that should be really, really fun. I know we've probably missed some episodes, sorry, go on.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I just since I have pages and pages of notes. I just I wanted to say okay again. I said one of the funniest parts was Flora and the ghost Martha lost it.
Speaker 1:Staying over to watch for the wardrobe door open like just Martha Martha cracking up. That was very fun listening between the two of you, yeah, I think. Just one other thing I wanted to mention was I thought it was so interesting that John Thorpe, when the two of you talked about John Thorpe and Isabella mentioning the monk and endorsing reading the monk and he is his energy is so similar to a lot of the energy of the males in the monk. Right, Like he goes after Catherine without consent. He's basically telling people he's engaged to her when she hasn't said yes.
Speaker 2:The entitlement is absolutely there. Oh my gosh, that's such a fantastic. Yes, Love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I also loved. I loved when you were talking about the romance of the forest. I know that's in sense and sensibility and that's brought up between Harriet and Mr Martin. But I really loved the question why call stories romantic when they're not?
Speaker 2:right, like when they're not really about love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that could be a really interesting episode too, and I and obviously there's the difference between romantic with a capital R and a lower case R. But I didn't think these topics fit into either. These books for me didn't fit into either. You know what I mean when I think about romantic with like a capital R. I think about like pastel colors and like pictures of lambs and like William Blake, like I'm not thinking, like I'm not thinking the energy of these books. So I was literally just like it's interesting to me, and also the romantic era was slightly later, I want to say as well, like words were, like romanticism, right.
Speaker 1:That was my question too. Was like okay, blake, words worth. It doesn't sound like romance of the forest is similar to what's happening in the romantic era either. So what? Yeah, anyway. I just think that'd be a really incredible episode to unpack. So I thought there was just. It was so entertaining to listen to that episode because there there are so many bonkers shenanigans happening, but also I just think a lot of really interesting literary themes came up. So yeah, I really enjoyed that one.
Speaker 2:Love it and it's a good way, for obviously, the author episodes are a good way to bring in different texts that aren't the the cortex, like Jane Austen's cortex, but also doing this as well, like reading around, like reading contemporary works that Jane Austen would have read is well contemporary for Jane Austen is really good as well, because it means we can bring different books in and it gives us a different perspective on the time period, but also Jane Austen's writing and what she was exposed to as well. I think that's so, so important. I know we've probably missed some, some episodes, some topics, but this is such a long episode. We're probably going to have to wrap things up, but I am so excited for next year. I, like I said, I put a box on Instagram asking for suggestions. Character studies was up there. A lot of people said about character studies. I'll try and get my list up, actually while we're doing it. But, like you know, you've probably heard throughout that I have so many other ideas to that I want to bring up.
Speaker 2:This will be the last episode of this year because I'm going to take a break over Christmas, because I start recording for next year and planning for next year now anyway. So, yeah, there's not going to be another episode coming out, but it's been so good to just like reflect on this year and everything. I actually feel like in a bit of a blur with everything that's happened with the podcast. It's just kind of been very much on autopilot for me a lot of the time this year Because I've had so much in like my private life to deal with. But I'm so glad even on autopilot, there's so much has come out of it, because the last thing that I want is for the podcast to suffer for it, because I've put so much work into it in the past, you know. So I'm really glad that you know we've had all this to talk about. It's actually been so good. It's been a good year for the podcast.
Speaker 1:It has, and I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit. Like Izzy, I know for a fact Izzy plans a lot of these episodes so far in advance. Like you have put so much into the episodes this year. You do so much front loading and planning ahead of time, so you just did such a great job this year. I loved every episode. I just think you did phenomenally. So yeah, I told you I was tearing up just several times listening there. No, it's just so much encouragement.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like just in a very cathartic way, I think.
Speaker 2:People think I'll just bring you on here to just boost my ego up no.
Speaker 2:But no, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's been a wild one but it's been fun and I'm really excited for next year and just growing even more and growing the book club, because I'm loving that, I'm loving the people on there, growing the Patreon, different things that I can offer outside of the book club and, who knows, maybe I'll kick off my personal YouTube again at some point. I don't know, we'll see where we get to. But yeah, I think my main goal for next year is consistency. Where I feel like I'm consistently showing up on the Instagram with the podcast and everything. I'm not working on autopilot so much next year. That would be ace, because I feel like it's easier to grow then, you know, reach more, more Jnites if I'm a little bit more active in the community again. So I'm excited for that.
Speaker 1:And you deserve you just a well deserved rest. Like I hope you do really take a break and I know that, yeah, the podcast will be there when you're ready to come back, and I'm so excited to be on more episodes and I'm so excited to just see all of the ideas and all of the new participants and just see what's in store for the next year. I think you've got you already have so many good ideas and I'm so glad that the listeners can have more input to contacting you for what they want to hear.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, always so helpful.
Speaker 1:I hope you will DM Izzy. You can DM me too if you have any ideas, because we want your ideas, we want to know what you want to hear and, yeah, I'm mixed up Definitely.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I love it. Of course, kaylee will be on next year and we have like plans as well that hopefully we can share about. If they all come about, we have some exciting plans for next year, like Jane Austen's theme plans. So, yes, should be so good. I'm very excited. Thank you so much for all your support this year. It's been amazing, and I just have so much love for the community and everything that you guys bring to the table as well. So thank you so much. Thank you so much to my Patreon members, who obviously are supporting financially as well. That's absolutely amazing. And thanks Kaylee, as always, my number one cheerleader. So that is everything from us today and we will see you in the new year.