Episode 55: Jane Austen Unpopular Opinions #3

Grab your teacup and join Caily and me as we spark a lively debate that may just upend your literary loyalties with another Jane Austen Unpopular Opinions Episode! 

• Pride and Prejudice is not Jane Austen's best novel. 
• Mr Darcy is not shy and Mr Bingley is spineless   
• The 2008 Sense & Sensibility is better than the 1995 one?
• A few more to spice things up...

As always this episode was so much fun to make, if you want to connect with Caily you can find her on loads of episodes and also here:

Where can you find Caily?
Instagram: @half_agony_half_hope

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Transcript

Izzy: 0:19

Hi, jane Iates, and welcome back to the what the Austin podcast and welcome to 2024. Yeah, so excited to kick the year off with Kaylee. I know we wrapped the year up, but you know I'm good to kick things off together as well. And yeah, I'm really excited for this year. Lots of amazing content plans, so many incredible guests aligned up. So I'm really excited for it and I'm excited to have you back, kaylee. I'm excited to do another unpopular opinions, because we love doing these.

Caily: 0:47

I'm excited to be back. And when you said 2024, I just went oh my gosh, we've known each other for four years now, right, Because we met. Yeah, we started our Instagrams in 2020, during the pandemic. So when you said that, I was like Whoa, whoa.

Izzy: 1:07

Oh my God, how quick is that gone. That's just insane, isn't it.

Caily: 1:11

Wow.

Izzy: 1:12

Wow.

Caily: 1:12

Amazing. Also, I love doing the unpopular opinion episodes. I get the biggest kick out of what people say.

Izzy: 1:20

Oh my gosh, I know. Oh my God, you just made me think as well. So come April it'll be three years of the podcast. That's mad. Yeah, wow, that's insane, isn't it Gosh? Time flies when you're having fun and meeting other J Knights.

Caily: 1:36

Should we tell them I'm so excited for when we're next to each other and what we're going to be doing?

Izzy: 1:41

So me and Kaylee are going to the Jane Austen Festival this year. I was meant to go last year in that all fell free for me. So this year I was like, kaylee, come on, we'll go together, we'll book accommodation, we'll do loads of Jane Austen themed stuff. So, yes, we are going to be in Bath for the festival. Probably the first weekend is what we're looking at, and, yeah, that'll be so fun. I'm so excited. I've never been, you've never been, kaylee, so I'm really excited to do that.

Caily: 2:07

I can't wait, and I wanted you to say it because I know that you wanted to go so badly the previous year and it got away from me, so I'm really excited to experience it with you and both of us going for the first time, so it'll be amazing, yeah, so if you, I know exactly.

Izzy: 2:26

So if anyone listening has been thinking about going to the festival, now's the year Come, the same year as me and Kaylee Like we'd love to meet you and chat to you there. So, yeah, definitely, here's your sign. Here's your sign to book on until you get accommodation sorted, because that goes really fast.

Caily: 2:40

So yeah, yeah, and it's been so fun to be part of the book club and read persuasion, because then I'm just like, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm really living the bath experience, you know, and getting excited for it.

Izzy: 2:55

I know, oh my gosh, yeah, I love that, and that reminds me as well. If anybody wants to join the Patreon, which is the same as the book club, feel free to do that. The links are below. Obviously, you'll be supporting the podcast financially, but also you'll be able to join the book club in the group that we have over there. We have such an incredible group. Everyone's so lovely. We love catching up every month. We share stuff constantly. I mean that the feed on the book club page is always lit, isn't it, kaylee? Like there's always posts on their pictures, people sharing their thoughts, people sharing their quotes, anything like that, and we love that. And then, obviously, we get together every month and we also did a watch party over Christmas, which I'm definitely up for doing again. So fun to just get together and watch film and, yeah, it's really nice. You just have that kind of more intimate setting which you don't really get on Instagram. It's just nice for the group of us to come together and chat on a more one-to-one basis. I love it.

Caily: 3:50

Yeah, I love the polls too. I just love that you can vote on your favorite quote, you can vote on the adaptation that everyone will watch together and, yeah, just like you said, the fact that it's a small, intimate setting where everyone can participate. I absolutely loved it. It made my day the last book club session you had.

Izzy: 4:08

Yes, if joining a book club on your 2024 list, new Year's Resolution or whatever, maybe join mine, that would be awesome. I'd love to have you on there. If you love reading Jane Austin's works, then it might be the place for you Find some like-minded Janeites. So we're going to do unpopular opinions again. We've got a few picked out. I put a request out on Instagram again. We've got a few from there. Me and Kaylee added some of Oz on. We kind of just pulled loads together and then we just picked off our favorite, which is what we're going to cover today Unpopular opinion. Pride and prejudice is not Jane Austin's best novel.

Caily: 4:47

Okay, so this one. It's too vague. It's like, okay, then choose another one that you think is better. I keep thinking like in what way, in what category? I think where Pride and prejudice is the best novel is. Pride and prejudice has, I think, the best pacing. I think it's the most addictive story that draws you in. If someone's new to Jane Austin, I say read Pride and prejudice first, and I think Elizabeth and Darcy have the most interesting love story around redemption. The way that Pride and prejudice is not Jane Austin's best novel to me is I think persuasion has the most the best internal monologue and I think it's so interesting, the pacing without dialogue. It doesn't rely on dialogue and I find that really interesting. I think that Emma has the best banter, best dialogue. I think that sense and sensibility has the most character development. So I think it just depends on the category. What are you thinking? So I agree that I think it's the best one to start with.

Izzy: 6:12

Like, if you're just coming to Austin, I think, start with Pride and prejudice. I think what you were saying with pacing is what? Basically the same as what I say about the plot for Pride and prejudice. The plot is so nice, easy going, it flows so well. That's why it's so easy to adapt, I would say.

Izzy: 6:30

And something that I chatted to Sarah Das about when she was adapting persuasion is that's what she struggled with the most with that novel is because there's not enough plot to kind of pull out and then adapt it. And I was like that is so interesting and so true, I would say for me, because persuasion and Pride and prejudice for me just like battle, for like the top in my feelings on it is that Pride and prejudice oh my god, I just like. This is like stop, it's so hard, okay. So I think persuasion is Austin's best written work, you know. I think it's a testament to her writing journey. I think it's just absolutely beautiful, like some part of me just feels like that is Austin's love letter to all of her fans, that maybe she didn't even realize she would have so many fans. I can't imagine she would ever estimate like what it's become. But yeah, I feel like that is like her final love letter, because she was writing that when she was dying. And I feel like Pride and prejudice is I don't know.

Izzy: 7:29

I kind of feel like Pride and prejudice was really special to Austin. I think you can, you can sense that like it's almost an amalgamation of everything that makes all of other novels good. You know she, it has great characters, it has great plot. The romance is, you know, epic. It's just, yeah, it's fantastic. You've got the locations like I love that about Pride and prejudice that they move around so much. So I, I, I don't, it's really difficult. I, like you said, it's difficult because it's vague, it's like it's not her best work and it's like, well, what is the alternative? I could argue that persuasion is her best work, and I would do if it was on writing quality. But then if you're thinking about, like everything I'm like for me, I could argue that Pride and prejudice is her best work because I'm literally just like, well, it's got a big effort, that in.

Caily: 8:19

I feel the same way. I think Pride and prejudice is the most. I wasn't expecting to say this, actually, I thought I was going to argue more for persuasion. I think Pride and prejudice, just like you said, is the most well rounded, has the most balance. It has amazing plot movement, like we've talked about. It has iconic dialogue Think about how it starts and how iconic that opening scene is. It has those moments where Lizzie has that in internal experience that she shares with us, that's shared with no one else. That is similar to Anne Elliot's experience throughout persuasion. And so I think, overall, pride and prejudice may, may win, win out, which is different than what I would have said in the past, but I do think persuasion has so much nuance and sophistication, the way that she can get us so attached to the story and the experience and the characters without having the movement of the dialogue.

Izzy: 9:26

Oh gosh, you just said sophistication. Then I felt that I was like yes, that's such a good word to kind of encapsulate persuasion.

Izzy: 9:32

It really is. I'll throw a different thought out there on Pride and prejudice. Do you think that we think that the plot is easy going and you know, we always encourage people to read that first Do you think that's actually the book itself? Or do you think that's because we're also exposed to elements of Pride and prejudice because of, like, the adaptations and everything that really just like showcase the whole book in such a good way that I'm literally just like if we had no adaptations, would it be? Would we feel the same way about this way? We're about Pride and prejudice. Do you know what I mean? I don't know how to quite explain this, but it's like, as you think we're all thoughts on it are kind of clouded slightly because there's so much exposure to Pride and prejudice.

Caily: 10:16

That's a really good point because in my opinion there's no adaptation of persuasion that measures up and I think we have, honestly, three really good adaptations of Pride and prejudice and I wonder if that does have an influence that. I think that's really good to think about when I think about reading both of them. Pride and prejudice sucks me in at a certain point, particularly once she gets to Pemberley and and after I'm sitting there and I'm so filled with emotion I can't put it down Like I have to get through it, I have to keep reading it. Persuasion I have a different experience where it moves me so much that I have to like pause and reflect on parts that I just read, like the carriage scene. So I have a different experience with both. That I love yeah.

Izzy: 11:13

I love that. That's such a good point. Actually, it's the ease of reading it, like just that it brings you so much joy. Like I find that as well. I feel like there's a nostalgia to Pride and prejudice for a lot of people as well, like for me, because that was the first text I experienced it. Just it brings me so much joy to re explore it, like just you know I mean. So I think that plays a part for me as well.

Caily: 11:36

Yeah, I think so. We both were introduced to Pride and prejudice before persuasion.

Izzy: 11:43

Yeah, definitely which I'm so glad about as well, because I don't think I could have ever appreciated persuasion at the age that I was introduced to Pride and prejudice. You know, I just couldn't even have seen an adaptation like I would not have sat with me like the way that Pride and prejudice does.

Caily: 12:00

I completely agree. I, yeah, I was wondering what would have happened if I were introduced to persuasion first, and I feel the same way because I was able to get into Pride and prejudice at a young age. But I remember telling friends when I was younger oh, the first four chapters of persuasion are slow and you just have to make it through those and then it really is incredible, give it a chance. But now, on this reread, this last reread of persuasion, I've loved the introduction and I find it so funny and subtle and nuanced and I'm really so, yeah, I think there's a maybe a level of maturity you have to have to enjoy persuasion.

Izzy: 12:46

Yeah, it's interesting that we're both like, but when it comes to what's considered her best work, isn't it funny that we we automatically have both been like persuasion or pride and prejudice. Isn't that really interesting? Like, I feel like it trumps even your just general preference, because I know your favorite sense of sensibility. But I feel like, when it comes down to what is her best work, it that's. I feel like it is less subjective in a sense that it's literally just like well, actually, what what's stood the test of time, the best out of all of her work, what's the most you know, well loved, which is the most well known text? And I feel like, in that sense, you have to argue that it is pride and prejudice.

Izzy: 13:25

But I get that for some people if they don't like that text, or if this person writing this has come from the stance of like in terms of writing quality. Yeah, I can get that as well. So it's it's difficult, isn't it? But I I'd be inclined to disagree with this person and be like pride and prejudice is her best text in the grand scheme of things, like overall.

Caily: 13:49

Oh my gosh, when, yeah, oh, I really resonate with what you just said, because isn't that so interesting? That my favorite sense and sensibility. But I'm not even trying to argue that it's her best novel, like I see some. I see some flaws in it, like we talked about this before. But I think that Colonel Brandon and Mary Anne getting together at the end is wrapped up too quickly. There isn't enough there, like there should have been another chapter. And then aren't you pretty partial to Emma as well?

Izzy: 14:23

I love Emma. Yeah, it's not my favorite text but I do really love it. I think it's fantastic, like in terms of like a character study, emma is so good, it's so fun. Yeah, I just think that's a great, a great novel as well. And also, like I love exploring it, like I have done recently, where I kind of seen it through like a murder mystery sense, like I know no murders happen, but the fact that it's like this close knit town where everything happens and the way that Jane Austin builds the characters is so similar to the way that, like, christie builds characters. You know that was that's something that's really stood out to me. And yeah, like I kind of love that.

Izzy: 15:03

I love North Anger Abbey for like loads of different reasons as well. You know, I love the commentary on novels at the time and like reading novels at the time. I love the Gothic elements, like that. It brings that in and yeah, I mean there's something to love and this is the issue. There's something to love in all of her texts. But I understand why people place Pride and Pregis at the top. I do the same thing because I'm literally just like it's just the best. It's just technically the best text, I suppose, like you know what I mean, it's difficult because she has like just like a few in there also like different, so it's literally just like what brings in the best qualities of all.

Caily: 15:42

I think it's Pride and Pregis. I really think it is. But I just have to point out, the only one we have not mentioned yet is Mansfield Park, but I will say Spirits and. Checks Neither of our favorite. But I will say that in college my academic supervisor taught Jane Austin some summer course and she was always arguing that Mansfield Park was was the best text thematically. And I couldn't, but I just wanted to put that out there.

Izzy: 16:18

You know, what's actually so funny is when I was writing my dissertation at uni, my dissertation was probably like 80% Mansfield Park. Did you read my diss? I can't even remember, but it was like 80% Mansfield Park because I literally had so much of my my diss focused on, like Mary Crawford and stuff. So, yeah, a lot of it was on Mansfield Park. I think Mansfield Park is the best to analyze. This is the thing that's going to take from all the texts. For me, mansfield Park is probably the one that I could talk the most on one, because I have like such a polarizing like view on it.

Izzy: 16:49

But also it's just layer upon layer and each character so significantly in their own right there, each kind of controversial, which is absolutely fascinating, like to have a text where it's like nobody's likable In my, in my eyes, you guys, or nobody's like, um, universally likable. That's fascinating to me. I'm just like what on earth is this?

Caily: 17:17

Absolutely. Oh my gosh, when you said that Mansfield Park is the best to go back and analyze, I think it can. You can see new perspectives every time you read it. That is that it's such a good point. I think Mansfield Park personally personally at least is the least fun to read, like the opposite of pride and prejudice sucking you in. But it there's so much interesting analysis, like the fact that a lot of people aren't even rooting for the heroine right, like a lot of people like Mary Crawford over Fanny. Yeah, there's a lot there with Mansfield Park.

Izzy: 17:54

It's dark, it's heavy compared to Austin's other stuff. So you know, if you really loved Austin for the light hearted banter and you know the witty romance and all of that, like you come to Mansfield Park you're literally just like what is going on now, like what is what is even happening.

Caily: 18:13

So yeah, that's just this woman with her pug.

Izzy: 18:18

What is going on? Oh my gosh, so funny. Like all the characters in Mansfield Park I can relate to. I'm literally just like I'm in my Lady Bertramera, just being hoggy like he just chill.

Caily: 18:29

I'm in my Lady Bertramera.

Izzy: 18:33

Just let things just happen. I'm just like I'm at peace with everything. Just let things happen around me. I'll just love my dog.

Caily: 18:40

I'm so not, lady Bertramera.

Izzy: 18:48

Oh man, so funny. Yeah, I mean I've got to disagree with this person. I love, I love this topic as an unpopular opinion because I think it does bring up like such a massive debate and I'd love to hear what other people have to think about, like in the comments section, or like DM me on Instagram or Kaley or whatever, and because I do think this is a fascinating topic. I feel like it's yeah, interesting, isn't it?

Caily: 19:12

Yeah, I would love to hear in the comments just what people think the best novel is categorically related to specific themes like who has the best character development, best dialogue, just a lot of the categories we've mentioned, because I think it's a different answer based on what you're looking for.

Izzy: 19:37

Yes, exactly, exactly. And I feel like if you've got to place something at the top, you have to look at it, look at it as kind of an overriding answer, and I think that is interesting when people start to think of it like that, and maybe you're welcome to the idea that it's Pride and Prejudice. But I'd love to hear from this, like do you want me like people who put this? I'd love to know like what is this? Literally, just like no, I can't place Pride and Prejudice at the top, because if there is like a specific reason, like I'd love to know that, because, yeah, we could throw that into another unpopular opinions episode, like Pride and Prejudice isn't the best, because and then you know, we could discuss that.

Caily: 20:13

Oh yeah, I hope the person who sent this does respond, because I would love to. I think both of our guests is that they'll say a persuasion, but imagine, if it's not persuasion, that it's another. I would just love to hear the reasons.

Izzy: 20:26

It might be. You're like whatever you're true, you're false cheater, it's Mansfield Park and I'll just be like friend. You're just gonna have to come on for an episode because I need clarity.

Caily: 20:35

It's Sanditin, I know, I'll just be like okay, but like.

Izzy: 20:40

That's not fair. It's the best because it has potential. That was never like. That never came to fruition. I'll be like wow.

Caily: 20:47

I don't think that counts. I don't even know that counts. Oh, we have to love it. It's both landed on Pride and Prejudice is the best Okay.

Izzy: 20:57

Yeah, we'll come back in like 2028 and we'll be like but they will have digged up like a different novel, a new novel, like a Jane Austen novel, like they will have found like a lost works and they'll be like the best novel ever, like who knows, can you imagine if that happened? Can you? I would die, I would just die. That would be the most insane news ever.

Caily: 21:19

Someone should write a book about that plot. Someone finding the last work of Jane Austen that's fully completed?

Izzy: 21:26

Oh, my God, can you imagine? Well, someone finds all of her letters and they weren't burnt, they were just buried somewhere.

Caily: 21:33

That would be vicious. There'd be so much.

Izzy: 21:39

I can't even imagine. Yeah, I hope that never happens, actually, just because, like the world we live in now, like with the cancel culture and everything, and like Lordy Law, we don't want to be finding Jane Austen's lost letters matters for sure. Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Okay, are we happy to move on to the next topic then? Yeah, let's do it, okay. Next on popular opinion is I don't like Jane and Bingley together. You're spineless.

Caily: 22:13

This is funny.

Izzy: 22:15

I'm funny looking paid.

Caily: 22:17

Like I am. I'm like, okay, I'm trying to see this. Okay, I do like Jane and Bingley together. I think they're super sweet, I think they both are so pure of heart and just see the world in a very similar way and I think they're going to be really great parents. But I have to say I understand parts of this argument because I personally found it really unattractive that Mr Bingley was so easily persuaded that Jane didn't love him and that he doesn't know his own mind and has to get Darcy's blessing and Darcy's opinion on everything. I know that would personally really bother me and I've actually thought before when Mr Bennett says to Jane you and Mr Bingley are so kind that all of your servants are going to cheat you. I do think they're very similar and sometimes you need a little bit of an opposite attract dynamic. But I do think Jane is a lot more grounded than we give her credit for. So, end of the day, I like them together. I think it works.

Izzy: 23:40

Oh my God, I just have so many thoughts on this. That's so weird. I didn't even think that I would I actually do. Okay, I have some thoughts on the.

Izzy: 23:48

You know that he was like persuaded by Darcy, I think maybe I see it less that he was like persuaded by Darcy in the sense that he realized that Jane had these massive feelings, but he was still persuaded out of it. Does that make sense? He was like oh well, jane, she does have really strong feelings. There's someone says something different and he's like oh, maybe I'm just like so wrong. And that's not actually the case. I don't think Jane like showcases her feelings that well. Like she is quite subtle about the way that she's, you know, interacting with him. She's not putting all of her cards on the table, kind of thing, which is understandable. But at the same time that gives him less to go off. And if you don't give somebody anything, are they going to put themselves on the line for you? I mean, especially if they like you like, are they going to do that? Because that's, you know, you're really risking your own heart in that situation. So sometimes I'm a little bit like maybe it wasn't like Mr Darcy had to go to great lengths to persuade him. Maybe it was actually quite easy to just be like maybe she doesn't, she's not really interested in you, and he was just like, oh, you know, I've kind of worried that as well Because, you know, I'm not sure she's not giving me that much attention, or something like that. So part of me is like you know, maybe it wasn't quite as extreme, and I have other thoughts as well. What are my other thoughts on this? I have loads of other thoughts now I'm like forgetting what I was going to say. Oh, and a reason that I think this as well.

Izzy: 25:07

I think there's two instances, the first being there's parts of the book where Bengli like openly kind of mocks Darcy or just like makes fun of him because he knows what Darcy's character is. Right, bengli's not that much of a push over if you really read into the text. Like he, he knows what Darcy's like and he'll even be like Darcy'll do something. He'll be like I don't really care what Darcy's up to, like Darcy'll be Darcy, like I'm just going to do my own thing. And there's so many instances that he shows that, which is why I'm always a bit like.

Izzy: 25:34

I think the issue with the Darcy situation is that he conceals the fact that Jane was in London because Mr Bingley like if Mr Bingley knew that Mr Bingley, he'll probably be like she doesn't like me it's cool, like I'm going to go and see her, but because he conceals it, it actually just takes it completely out of his hands. You know, and I don't think that's why I can't seem as spineless, because I'm like he would step up if he's given the green flag by Jane, you know. I mean he would step up and we see that at the end. And also it says that, like when Elizabeth's asking Darcy about the situation, like his interference with Jane, darcy says, like when I told Bingley that I concealed the fact that Jane was in London, like he was, he was miffed, he was not happy with me, like he was pretty angry about it, like he forgave me but he was like not pretty, he was not happy.

Izzy: 26:21

So I don't see Bingley as spineless. I see him as actually having a spine. Do I think he's got softer characteristics compared to Darcy? Yes, absolutely, and not all women are going to be interested in somebody like Darcy, you know. And so I think, yeah, I don't think he's spineless, I think he has a spine, but I think he's, you know, not knocking people out with his spine like Darcy is.

Caily: 26:45

Not getting people off, please. You bring up a lot of really good points here. I that's absolutely right. And I noticed this that in the book there is one particular scene and I think even more than that where Bingley does poke fun at Darcy and Darcy gets kind of annoyed, and I none of that is really portrayed in the 1995 or 2005 adaptations. So I think Bingley does have a little bit more fire, fire than is portrayed in those adaptations. So I think I think that that's a really good point.

Caily: 27:25

And one other thing I wanted to say is I know a lot of people may not like this, but I super disliked the portrayal of Bingley in the 2005 version because, okay, he is very sweet and endearing in certain ways, but he's portrayed as stumbling over his words and really socially awkward. And I actually think in the book one of Bingley's greatest strengths is his ability to socially connect with people. And I think, because Jane has more reserved, I think they're really compatible because both of them, both of them value, both of them are so good natured and value seeing the good in people, and so that'll make them both very comfortable and happy in each other's presence and in public, and I can see them coming back from a ball and talking about how great everyone was. But I think that Bingley is more extroverted and more has an easier ability to connect with strangers, and I think that he'll help bring Jane out of her shell.

Izzy: 28:27

So yeah, yes, I love that. That is so true. I think in the past we've actually compared slightly Darcy and Jane's approach to society and how they're kind of put on these pedestals and how that in itself can be like the halo effect. Right, it can kind of make you reject people around you if people are constantly putting you on a pedestal. I think I heard this thing that it was like if you treat somebody like a celebrity, they're always going to treat you like a fan. So that's like that's really interesting. But, yes, I love all of that. So true.

Izzy: 29:00

I actually have such a fondness for Bingley now, even just in this conversation, like I'm just like oh, and also I think that I think people see it like always a push over, like Darcy told me what to do and he's Darcy's approval and everything. I think it's less that like Darcy's, like this domineering presence in Bingley's life, and more that Bingley and Darcy have such a respect you know they have such a strong friendship the fact that they can make fun of each other and like poke fun and the fact that Bingley knows him so well that he can make those jokes and the fact that Darcy spends so much time with the Bingleys, like considering. Really they aren't on the same playing field. But Darcy chooses to be Bingley's friends, who wants to spend time with him and live in his house and live in conditions that are lesser than he would be in Pemberley. I think they have such a strong friendship that I'm just like I think it would be more that if, if you have like a really strong male male friendship and your friends like I'm not sure about like this person you're seeing, I think you question slightly you'd probably just be like, yeah, maybe there is like things to consider.

Izzy: 30:03

Maybe I should take a step back for a little bit and see what happens Again. I think if Bingley had known that date, that I think if Bingley would have known that Jake was in London, he would have just been like great, I'm going to pursue this even more. And I think Darcy knew that and I think that's why he kept it from him, because he was like me saying to him that I'm not, I don't think Jane's a great match, is not going to be like that's not going to, that's not going to sway the tide for Bingley, like he'll still pursue her if he wants to. That's why he conceals it, I think, because he's literally just like I'm just going to have to tell, like not say, that she's here, because if I do he'll, he'll go and pursue her.

Caily: 30:36

So oh my gosh. Okay, two things based on what you've said. One is, if they make another pride and prejudice adaptation, I hope that they show a little bit more of Darcy and Bingley's banter with each other and how Bingley pokes Darcy, because I think I think both of the most recent recent popular adaptations have shown Bingley and Darcy a little bit too much as foils of one another, and I think actually there's more nuance there, and so I think that's really that would be really good. And then I also just wanted to put out there that my sister thinks that Bingley is much more of a catch and the better man in the situation. So there are people, since you love Bingley, there are people out there who definitely prefer Mr Bingley to Mr Darcy. So that's another.

Izzy: 31:33

Oh my gosh, then itself is like such a fun topic. And you know, the more that you talk about like the reasons that you don't really like the portrayal of Bingley in the 2005 one, the more that I can kind of see that as well. I agree, I feel like they don't portray all of his kind of more nuanced characteristics in that very well. I think in the 1995, they do a slight job of it, Like at the end, you know, when Bingley and Darcy are like walking out together and Bingley's just about to go and propose to Jane and he's like you can steal this from me all this time and Darcy's like yes, I'm terrible friend, I'm so sorry, Bingley, Like I hope you can forgive me and he's like oh, so I have your blessing and then he's like just like, yeah, sure you do you friends, you can propose, because you know I've already proposed to my sister once and she refused me.

Izzy: 32:15

So you shoot your shot.

Caily: 32:18

That is a really good scene. But when you say that I'm like but he's still after, like, being mad at Darcy's like, so I have your blessing, and the Darcy's like do you need it? And he's like, no, yeah, that is true, but I'd like to have it all the same, that's. That's a really good part.

Izzy: 32:32

Yeah, I just love that friendship. I'm sorry and I'm just like living Bingley even more right now. So do I think he's spineless? No, I think he's got a spine. I think he's just not, as it's not as over as it is with with Darcy.

Caily: 32:48

I don't. Yeah, I think I'll go with. I think spineless is too strong of a word, but I think because he's good natured and likes to please people, he can be a little bit. I think he can be led, I think his opinion can be swayed, but maybe not on the most important things. End of the day, he's still married.

Izzy: 33:08

Yeah, yeah. And also I feel like because they're set against each other not set against each other, but like because they they're kind of set side by side Darcy and Bingley Darcy doesn't even tell anybody what his plans are, you know, he will just do something straight off his own. But I think this is like something that we've touched on the Harry Potter episodes as well. You know, darcy's such a such a strong character in that sense, like he doesn't have to go to somebody for validation to for him to make decisions. You know, he doesn't go and speak to somebody about pros until he's like. I've thought about this in my own head and this is the conclusion I've come to. Where is Bingley is more of a people, person like. He wants to have other people's validations. He wants to, like, talk things through people in, like.

Izzy: 33:51

Some people are just like that. You know, I mean, it's just different qualities, right? Some people are happy with their own thought processes. They can make decisions on their own and not need other people's thoughts. Validation what have you? And some people prefer to hear other people's, other people's thoughts, and I think that's necessarily a bad thing. You know, I actually think that there's something to be said for interdependence over independence and I feel like sometimes actually Darcy's too independent that that's his downfall. Like he doesn't actually include people in his thoughts and conversations. You know, look how, how drastic that turns out, like the Wickham situation and stuff. And also I also you can blame him slightly for the fact that Lady Catherine is so upset. So, darcy, speak up and be like I'm not going to be marrying your daughter. No, he just like keeps everything in his own mind I'm already proposing to somebody else. Like he just not forthcoming with people sometimes and that in itself I think can be a little bit of an issue.

Caily: 34:44

You're on fire. This. This honestly makes me think I've been too hard on Bingley, because, yeah, there's nothing wrong with wanting some validate, like it's good to know your own mind, there's nothing wrong with sharing things with your friends and wanting a little validation and reassurance from your friends. And I guess maybe it's healthy modeling that men can do that too, like I feel like it's more accepted for women to do that, to seek validation and reassurance from one another. But maybe so maybe it was actually healthy that Mr Bingley wanted, wanted, wanted to be open with his friend and get validation. And I do agree with you that Mr Darcy and Elizabeth are so private to the point where it's like, okay, you could have, you could have told Jane a little earlier, or you could have told your friend, or been been a little bit more open, darcy.

Izzy: 35:40

So yeah, I think that causes them both to be more judgmental as well, whereas Jane and Bingley because they consider like what other people they're just a little bit more empathetic. I'm starting to get the vibe that Elizabeth and Darcy have such narcissistic qualities, but you know, like I feel like the way that Jane and Bingley approach stuff is like they're not isolating themselves from other people. What are your thoughts? Is it going to sway my final opinion? Maybe not, but I want to hear it anyway and I don't think that's bad Bad thing to do.

Caily: 36:10

Yeah, you're. Yeah, like, even if you think about it, Lizzie is just described as a little bit more socially intelligent and and shrewd and ability able to size up a room. But at the end of the day, Jane is the one who calls it correctly that everyone shouldn't have vilified him and judged him so soon, and that they were wrong about Darcy and wrong about believing Wickham so quickly.

Izzy: 36:39

So yes, she's so right about Bingley as well. Like I know that obviously she accepts that he like disappears and she's like, oh, this is so terrible. He probably wasn't interested in me Valid thought process. You know, somebody just like disappears on you, but she also is there. Like I can't understand Darcy being this really terrible person, because I know Mr Bingley so well. I don't think he'd have such a friend. That takes some level of like social maturity right. You've got to really unpack stuff there to be like I know this guy well enough to suggest that he wouldn't have such a terrible friend and also like attracts. Like Mr Bingley is a great guy, nobody's disputing that. Why, with such a great guy, attracts such a terrible friend. They wouldn't.

Caily: 37:29

I feel like I'm viewing this whole novel in such a new way.

Izzy: 37:33

Man James new way this is coming from. I'm trying to leave someone here, right.

Caily: 37:40

Also just a fun fact, since you brought up the 1995 version of Mr Bingley. I love his portrayal, I think he's good natured, I think he's sweet, I think yeah, I just think he's wonderful. And he so his name's Kristen Bonham Carter and he's actually he's related to Helena Bonham Carter. I just thought that was fun.

Izzy: 38:07

Love that. Yeah, I love that. I never know what's his name, so I love that. That's an awesome fact. Let's see.

Caily: 38:12

Yeah, I was like oh my gosh, he's related to Bellatrix the Strong. I know she plays the real roles, but yeah, that's so funny, oh my gosh.

Izzy: 38:22

So are we disagreeing with this person? Because really we. I feel like we've argued that Bingley has a spine. Yeah, just not an obvious spine, it's just like a. He's got a chilled out spine. He's got a malleable spine.

Caily: 38:39

There's so much talk of the spine. Yeah, I think this is too harsh. I think I understand the frustration that he, you know, went to London. It took him a while to come back to Jane. I get that, but I think we've decided at the end of the day he's not spineless.

Izzy: 39:01

That's not fair to say oh my God, I'm so excited to do a Bingley character study at some point. That would be so good. Oh my God, I need to. That's got me excited for this. I'm so excited for that. Anyway, we should move on. New topic, same book. So just before we move on to the next topic, then I just want to say a little bit about our sponsor, house of Bennett.

Izzy: 39:22

If, like me, you love taking a break from your modern life to escape into Jane Austen's world of handwritten letters, romantic rendezvous and long walks in the countryside, you will love the House of Bennett shop. House of Bennett offers stickers, pins, jewelry, totes, shirts and so much more. All themes around your favorite classic literature and period dramas, including Jane Eyre, anne of Green Gables, little Women and, of course, the works of Jane Austen. Head over to HouseofBennettcom. That's H-A-U-S-O-F-B-E-N-N-E-T, dot C-O-M and use my code WhatTheDiscount for 15% off at the checkout. So once again, that's HouseofBennettcom and use my code WhatTheDiscount for 15% off. So unpopular opinion. Mr Darcy is actually not shy. So I think this is quite common, that people think that Mr Darcy shy, socially awkward, and this person say no, he's not shy.

Caily: 40:15

I like this one.

Izzy: 40:16

Yeah.

Caily: 40:18

I like this one a lot because I think there's a good argument that Mr Darcy obviously that first night is aloof, taciturn, kind of a jerk, and I think it portrays him in a more favorable light to say, oh, he's just shy and overwhelmed.

Caily: 40:41

But I see the argument for Mr Darcy not being shy because I feel like he's very intentional about choosing not to engage in conversations if he's not interested, like he's really good at tuning out Caroline Bingley. But then after that initial horror show where he slays Lizzie, every time he sees Lizzie when he talks to her he knows exactly what to say and I actually think he talks pretty boldly and he's quippy, he is flirtatious. I think in the part where Caroline Bingley is trying to get his attention is like Lizzie, let's take a turn about the room. He has this banter with them back and forth and he's like your figures will appear to best advantage if I just stay here. I think someone who's actually shy and more introverted would be hesitant to be quippy and like bold in the way that he states things. So I think there's a difference between being shy and being someone who chooses to stay quiet except when they want to engage. So I actually I think this is a really interesting unpopular opinion and I kind of support it.

Izzy: 41:59

Yes, oh, I love what you just said. That and I was trying to think of like another Jane Austen character who I would consider shy and seeing like the differences, and there's a character I would consider shy is Robert Martin from Emma.

Izzy: 42:13

So, if I'm going to like compare the two very different dynamics. The reason Robert Martin might not speak to Emma, say, is shyness and like, maybe feeling like a little bit insecure. The reason Darcy wouldn't speak to someone is because he chooses to. Yeah, I totally love that what you said. I think that's the case.

Izzy: 42:31

I mean, I can't see somebody who's shy constantly going out of their way to spend time with the past and they've got a crush on. Do you know what I mean? Like making these like, because there's moments that it's just like the two of them and it's like random and he's like basically trying to suss out Elizabeth. Like it stands out to me when they're walking around Rosings together and he's, like you know, asking her loads of questions and stuff, like in Elizabeth's like why is he shooing me next time I be here? Like he's also going to be here. That's funny and I don't think somebody who's shy would do that. You know, I feel like they probably avoid that or only interact if they're in like a bigger group, whereas he goes out of his way to be alone with Elizabeth quite a lot, which is quite bold really. Yes, bold.

Caily: 43:13

Bold is so the word. You're right, he, he pursues Elizabeth and he demonstrates this confidence here. That was such a good part where he assumes that she's going to say yes and everything. And when you said who are other characters that are shy, I mean Robert Martin's, a great example. And then I also immediately think of Edward Ferris. I think he's very shy and remember, when Marianne wants him to read and he sort of speaks in a monotone, he tends to trip over his words, he doesn't know what to say.

Caily: 43:49

But Mr Darcy, even in that initial proposal, he is very open and bold when he when he does speak and when he does have intentions for what he wants to say. And I would say, on top of this too. Okay. So there's this boldness that we both talked about. And then, while I think the 1995 and the 2005 adaptations do have really good and interesting portrayals of Mr Darcy, I think one way that neither actor truly captured how Mr Darcy is in the book is his playfulness. And he really likes banter. Like Lizzie is so defensive and introverted and kind of shutting him down, but after that initial encounter he's trying to be kind of friendly and playful with her and she's just not having it she's refusing to see him that way. But the more I reread it, the more I really think Darcy does have this playful side.

Izzy: 44:50

So true, like I know there's elements of him where he's like kind of arrogant and rude, but there's a lot of times, like prior to him proposing, where he is playful, like even the piano bit, like his initial interaction there is like really playful and like witty Elizabeth, who's like do you want to tell, do you want me to tell you what my cousin was like Like when he came to stay with us and she's kind of yeah, she's rude, actually Kind of abrasive, like she's really harsh, and I can understand why he feels so uncomfortable because she keeps coming across very like domineering, in a very unattractive way actually. Yeah, I mean he's surprised and he falls for it all Like it's a whole different argument that I could go on now that actually like why does he actually fall for Elizabeth? But yeah, I think as well you know his initial, the initial ball. I think obviously he likes spending time with the bingles, wants to come and stay with them, wants to check out this house that Bingley is going to rent and what have you.

Izzy: 45:53

But he is a bit uppity and I think he was just like why am I at a country ball? Like why am I just here with these randomness in this town. That actually has nothing to do with me. And on top of that again, like that halo effect that you're placing someone on a pedestal, can you imagine walking into a room and everybody's talking about you and everybody has these preconceived notions? You know it's, it's just massive, isn't it? I'd be like I'm sorry, but you're all coming across kind of a little pathetic. You know sounds really harsh, but you know, what I mean.

Izzy: 46:24

And then you probably would be like don't approach me because like you kind of being desperate yeah, people you know you push away people who are desperate. It's not an attractive quality, like you're always just like, stay away from me. And maybe that was his like reaction at the ball because everyone's just falling over him.

Caily: 46:42

I completely agree that he's at that ball. He's having a culture shock. I think he has a lot of privilege. I think he is a pretty, not necessarily because that's his nature, but because he was raised in a certain society and you know there's the everyone jokes about how Mrs Bennett says, oh, we're dying with four and 20 families, like that's such a limited circle.

Caily: 47:06

And even though Mr Darcy says he doesn't like meeting a lot of new people, he's used to such a being around such a different class, so much varied society that, yeah, he probably felt under a microscope and was like what is going on? Why? Why am I here? But I do think, yeah, the more you've been speaking, I think the times that we can't deny like there are certain times he's really rude, really arrogant, cold, aloof, but I feel like when that happens it's not out of shyness, I think it's out of pride and his ego has been hurt or there's something that he's he's judging. There's something he sees that he doesn't think is propriety, there's something that he doesn't like, there's something that doesn't go with I don't know the values he's been raised with.

Izzy: 47:58

Is that entirely wrong though? Like he is an established man, he's a real catch. You know, I wouldn't say he's shy, I'd say he's selective, but he has the absolute right to be selective with who he spends his time with right, that's how I'd see it a little bit. I know that seems a little harsh and, like you know, be welcoming to everybody the way Bingley is, but Bingley's not established in the same way. Yes, Bingley's got this like new money coming in, like he's got wealth, he's looking for a property and everything, but he's got to befriend like these people who live near his estate, you know, because he's potentially going to be living there himself and he wants to be established in like the countryside and wants to become part of like the landed gentry in a more secure way.

Izzy: 48:39

Darcy doesn't need to do any of that. Why would he actually care about these random ass people in a town at a country ball? He's also it'd be like so embarrassing like that these mums are like going speak to Mr Darcy. Like Mr Darcy's like the pun that he's fishing in is very different. In fact, he's not even fishing because, you know, these women, either from birth have been set up to marry him, like under Berg. We see that. Or alternatively you know these are going to be like heiress is coming forward someone like Emma Woodhouse, where it's like a match that makes sense in a societal sense. Darcy falls for Elizabeth and that changes everything. But shouldn't that be in the case, he would have been marrying for, you know, like a business transaction, it would have been strategic.

Caily: 49:28

Right, and as you say that, I keep thinking. Think about how many resources Mr Darcy has and the state of Pemberley that he's in charge of. He knows that people are going to be after his money and he probably wants to protect himself, and Mrs Bennett was so open about wanting her daughters to talk to him and everything. So I think it makes sense that he'd be a little wary when all of these women cut it spread around so quickly that he had 10,000 a year. How was that talked about so quickly? So I'm sure that tends to happen to him and I agree with you, he's probably constantly in social circles where he's likely the richest person, but there's a little bit more equality around assets and resources. So, yeah, yeah, he probably doesn't want to feel objectified and that women just want him for his money.

Izzy: 50:26

And also that's such a great point. I don't know enough around the historical context of this. I'd have to do research. But it's very interesting the way that Emma and Mr Knightley talk about each other, or if Emma's talking about Mr Knightley, finances never come into the equation. We never hear about like how much he's got, how much Emma's got, like I'm pretty sure finances just aren't talked about, whereas in Pride and Prejudice or Norfanger Abbey it's always these people who are either in lowest standing in the land of Gentry or just random families and they always know who these wealthy catches are. And that's the joke in Austin's first line, that all these moms assume that these wealthy men are the property of their daughters. But that's so fascinating.

Izzy: 51:13

But I actually think people who are in the upper class in Regency England probably just don't openly talk about it because it's a bit uncouth, isn't it? You don't go around talking about people's salaries. I mean, some people do, but I think it's really inappropriate that you just don't talk about. Maybe this is me just being superstitionable. I just think it's really rude to talk about finances in front of people like in public, unless it's in the correct setting. I just don't think it's really something you bring up around the dinner table.

Caily: 51:40

Absolutely uncouth is such a good word. I was just thinking what is? This other piece I want to mention, and it's around propriety. There was such a sense of propriety and Mr Darcy grew up in a social circle that really valued those social conventions. You were not supposed to talk to someone until you were formally introduced by someone you knew. Mr Collins, in a bumbling way, breaks that and just goes up to Mr Darcy, starts bumbling around talking about Lady Catherine de Berg. Mrs Bennett breaks a lot of those social conventions. She's very uncouth. She's talking about her social circle, she's talking about people's money, she's gossiping. Mr Darcy observes all of that and sees that as really ill-breeding. And then he sees Lydia and Kitty's drinking.

Izzy: 52:39

Flood cannibals, these bones and men, yeah Right.

Caily: 52:44

So he values those social conventions a lot in the Bennett family. He does not follow those, with the exception of Lizzie and Jane, which he names. He's like Lizzie and Jane. The two of you are different and the two of you do have a lot of propriety and he names that. I do think that's something he values, so no wonder he's in a bad mood when he sees all of that happening.

Izzy: 53:09

Yes, yeah, and it takes a certain person. It's also got his flaws. Absolutely it takes a certain person to be able to be like look, I'm born into privilege. I need to see things from a different stance here. We see that with Emma as well, like with Mr Knight. He's like you can't say this stuff to Miss Bates. You are by societal stance, by your birth, you are placed above her and you can't be saying cruel stuff to her and looking down on it because it's just wrong. But I agree, yeah, his upbringing has been way different. Actually, I kind of relate to him slightly, because there's certain things that I would be like be freaking me out like that If somebody's openly talking about their salaries or something.

Izzy: 53:52

I'd just be like oh, this is just not party conversations, Weird. Do you know what I mean? Where's somebody that like gossiping in like a room full of people? I'd probably be like, oh, I'm sure this is appropriate either, so I can kind of get where he's coming from. And if I didn't speak up in those scenarios it wouldn't be because I was shy. It's because it's not a conversation I'd want to be involved in.

Caily: 54:16

Exactly, oh, exactly. So he. I think he is very socially intelligent and witnessing what's proprietist, what isn't. You're right, I think he just removes himself, stays quiet, distances himself when he sees something he doesn't want to be a part of. I really like the way you explained that. But then when there are people that he likes and clicks with, he's not shy at all, Like I'm thinking about. Obviously he wouldn't have liked the description of the gardeners, right, he would have judged their status. But then when he actually meets them remember, I know he's trying to impress Elizabeth, but he absolutely knows how to be gregarious, outgoing, engage with them. He's so friendly to them he knows exactly what to say. And I really think of someone who's shy as being having a hard time sometimes knowing what to say, even if they want it, even if they like someone and want to engage with them.

Izzy: 55:17

Yes, oh no, I think that's absolutely the case. I think his preference of people trumps everything, because I was just thinking about the way he behaves around Lady Catherine and Anne and like I feel like the narrative states like he just doesn't say anything. He gives them no attention Again, probably because he doesn't like them and doesn't enjoy their conversation and everything. So, yes, oh, I love that so much. Yeah, I think Darcy's preference of people if he likes someone, if he clicks with them, he's like willing to go in, be open, wants to have conversations with them. But, yes, if he sees something he doesn't like, he just shuts down. I think that's fair enough. You don't want to be throwing your energy out on people that you don't click with, but it seems like a waste of time. You know he's quite logical in that sense, so I think he would probably see it that way. He'd just be like well, I'm going to waste my time with this person that I genuinely don't want to speak to.

Caily: 56:02

Absolutely, and it's protective. Imagine having the resources he has and having no boundaries. You're going to constantly have people wanting to talk to you, wanting to impress you. So I think he protects his energy. Yeah, I know, I often am like I can see both sides, but this one, I think this is an unpopular opinion that I very much agree with.

Izzy: 56:29

I totally agree with it as well. Yeah, I totally agree. He's not shy. I'm pointing it out there. Mr Darcy is not shy. I agree with this unpopular opinion. Yeah, that's an ace one there.

Caily: 56:40

He's not shy, he's not shy, he's just a snot. He's selective about who he engages with and where he puts his act.

Izzy: 56:49

I love it. Oh, that was an ace one. That was such a good one. Oh my God, that was a really good one.

Caily: 56:56

Oh, I liked that one.

Izzy: 56:57

Are you up for the next one? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Next one on the list? Oh, I'm excited about this one as well. Okay. So Captain Bennett, from persuasion, was desperate for love and they'll divorce in a year, referring to his marriage to Louise and Musgrove, which came out with the blue. I love this one, you know. When I saw it I was like I love it. Oh my gosh.

Caily: 57:24

I feel like I always go first. Do you want to share your opinion?

Izzy: 57:27

first. Okay, so I totally agree with this. I mean in terms of like divorce, we're putting a modern standard on it. It'd be incredibly difficult for anyone to divorce at that time, particularly them, because they have no money, so that probably would be out the window. However, the concept of them not being happy and it not working out, totally agree with. I think this is the consequence of two people who are looking for a rebound coming together and that's going to be a recipe for disaster, right?

Izzy: 57:52

He was clearly in love with Harville's sister who obviously she died of illness, I think like when he was away Super tragic that is. You know, he's like devastated, moping around, completely heartbroken, and he ends up asking Louisa to marry him after Louisa hits her head and she's heartbroken because Wenworth was just using her as a situation. She had not actually taken it seriously. I kind of sometimes I feel really bad for Louisa. You know, and I know I'm going to wrap up my Alice for Liability series with Louisa and they must just spend time together, like trying to recover together.

Izzy: 58:30

I think Benic starts reading to Louisa and is just there when she's like sick and everything, and I can see it from Louisa's standpoint. Right, she's gone through so much. She's heartbroken. The guy that she was interested in disappeared because he was frankly not interested in you in the first place and he was just kind of leading you on. And then this guy comes up and he's like willing to sit with you. He's kind of equally depressed and you just kind of come together over that. Like you come together over your heartache. I'm just like that's got to be a recipe for disaster, right? You're not going to be in heartache forever.

Caily: 59:03

Yeah, I can totally see them getting divorced too, because I think I was torn on this one.

Caily: 59:12

I think, okay, the reason I agree that they would get divorced is that I think she's very young when this happens and I think fundamentally she has a disposition similar to Lydia's. I think she craves novelty, she craves excitement, she has a desire for instant gratification. I think she has sort of this free spirited, adventurous energy and I think Captain Benwick is someone who wants to sit and be more of a homebody and analyze poetry and I think he would be better suited with someone who's a little bit more patient and docile and wants to sit there and have really intense intellectual conversations, deep dives into poetry, and I don't see Louisa in the long term having the patience for that. I see her getting restless and like while I totally see how they got together, I agree with her I think they're both depressed, I think they're both struggling.

Caily: 1:00:21

What happened to her was really traumatic and I think she needed a period maybe where she retreated from the world and she was sad, getting over this relationship, getting over the traumatic incidents. But I see her bouncing back and getting some of her old Joana, vieve and Mojo back and then I see her wanting more, wanting more adventure. I see her getting really restless.

Izzy: 1:00:47

I see her wanting more attention, which I don't think Benwick could give her. Once Benwick's actually healed which with time he would heal I think he would become disillusioned by her and I think he would constantly compare it to the person that he lost. It's like that notion of obviously like he couldn't be with this other woman that he fell in love with. But there'd be that constant comparison there and I don't think Louisa could bear that, you know, being this kind of second choice just because of the worst situation. I'm not seeing people who don't move on and marry someone else and then that works out.

Izzy: 1:01:16

But Louisa was just so happy, go lucky Her falling for Wentworth. It was like, oh, life's so joyful and Wentworth and I'm going to say all this stuff that you like me, because you think we've got so much in common and everything, and I think it would be quite a depressing life for her because she is so bubbly and she's not. I mean, I think that everything to a state, though the bang on the head, does change her and she becomes like a little bit more muted. But God, I mean, if that was the case, say she doesn't get all of her like happiness and youthful joy back. How depressing the two of them together.

Caily: 1:01:52

I agree with you, and it's interesting. Yeah, I think she gets energy once she's healed right, once she's out of this funk processing the traumatic incident that has happened. She's someone who gets a lot of energy from a crowd. She's an extrovert, she's bubbly, she's gonna want to be in society, she's gonna want newness. And I just see him. I think you're right that she would be second fiddle, but to the woman he loved. But I see him having a good faith, try being like oh, stay home with me, read this poem. Like, what's your interpretation of this line and this poem? And I see her being really frustrated and going oh, I don't care, I don't want to talk about this, I want to be out doing something exciting. And then I think he'll feel discontented that he can't have a deep conversation with her.

Izzy: 1:02:52

Oh yeah, oh my gosh. And also, on top of that, how awkward would it be because, like he's obviously friends with Wentworth and then like Wentworth and Anne this together and if they were to like hang out after oh my gosh, most awkward situation ever. I mean, wentworth really doesn't pick them well, and he's picking somebody to like flirt with or do whatever with. Oh my god, why pick someone in an social circle? You're absolutely numpty. You know, like, oh my god, that's just so awkward.

Izzy: 1:03:20

Like Louise is still there, like it's Wentworth you know, this guy that I like, really had a crush on blah, blah, blah and Benix is gonna be there. Like my wife doesn't like to talk about poetry, but your wife does, I'm jealous.

Izzy: 1:03:34

Oh, like no, because like when Wentworth says like, oh, you really let Benix come out of his shell like he was really open and not to you, like he's not been like that in ages since he lost, or like Fincavill says to her or something, and, like you know, anne really brings Benix back out of his shell a little bit because he's like not speaking to anyone, because he's super depressed, and so they both have this slightly inappropriate connection to the other person, which I don't see how that that would work.

Caily: 1:04:03

You know, I mean them being in each other's social circles that's so true that they have inappropriate connection to the other person. Yeah, and I think I actually think it wouldn't be as much of a problem with Wentworth and Louisa. I think Louisa would move on from Wentworth if there was someone else that really captured her attention. But I actually think that Benix would keep seeing Anne and what he likes about Anne's calm, calmness and depth of feeling and ability to sit with him and analyze these poems, and I think he would just prefer Anne so much to Louisa that it would be very awkward oh my gosh, that's making me cringe so much as well.

Izzy: 1:04:47

Maybe he went for Louisa because he was like oh well, wentworth is like loved Anne forever, and now Wentworth's after Louisa. Maybe Louisa's like Anne and then like Caesar and Ed, where she's like all mellow and he's like oh, she is like Anne and Wentworth was like oh my gosh, she's not at all oh my god, so bad oh, that'd be so awkward.

Caily: 1:05:08

It would be Wentworth and Benix just like, both adoring Anne, and then Louisa's like that board. I want to go have fun.

Izzy: 1:05:15

I know, oh my goodness. But I also think that was the only like. I feel like Austin had to do that, because what's the alternative? They she couldn't have just left Louisa like sorry, she couldn't have just left Louisa with like bump on the head when Wentworth's gone off. Everyone thinks Wentworth's gonna marry her. How she couldn't rectify that any other way. So it makes sense, I think, for the narrative that Benix comes in and he marries Louisa and it kind of wraps up some loose ends there, I think. So I think it actually does make sense.

Caily: 1:05:44

But yeah, I think in the grand scheme of things, in real life that would just not be practical at all yeah and right, and I think Devil's Advocate against my own opinion too is I may not be giving Louisa's character enough credit. She is really young when all this happens and some of that free spiritedness. Maybe as she matures she truly is able to. Um, I don't know, maybe I'm not giving her enough of a chance that she does mature and grow up and get a get a little bit more measured.

Izzy: 1:06:22

Maybe it is possible for the two of them to click so yeah, and also I kind of feel bad for her as well because she must kind of feel a little bit foolish. Not that any of it is her fault that Wentworth is flirting with her and leaves her on. That's absolutely not on her whatsoever. As far as she's aware, this is a single man who openly says that he's looking for any woman who can make him smile, literally. Um, she has no idea about this whole like past attachment with Ann, that he still harbors feelings for her, that he's going to declare those feelings like none of this Louisa knows. And so it must have felt so awkward I mean, I'm saying this like the real people like it would feel so awkward to be on the other side of that you know, to realize then to find out that he's marrying Ann and you'd feel kind of stupid. You'd be like, oh my god, was I blind to all this? And it's like no, louisa, you weren't blind.

Caily: 1:07:11

Like he was just being a douche, like yeah, yeah, and and, and she was young and she wanted to, she wanted to flirt, she wanted to have some excitement and but maybe eventually she said she does settle down a little bit, like a lot of people do.

Izzy: 1:07:31

Yeah, so maybe yeah, I mean I yeah not the ideal way to start. I think both of them would benefit from healing first, before they come together. I don't think it's ever a good thing to heal, like to come to somebody and you're both need to do healing work and then deciding you're just going to do that together. I don't think that ever works. I think you're just putting bandages on top of problems which eventually you'll have to deal with anyway.

Izzy: 1:07:53

So I think it's best for people to do their separate healing work alone and then come. You know, that's my opinion. I wonder if you have a different opinion on that. Like for me, yeah, I really think people should do their healing work alone. I don't think they should bring that into a relationship, like you know, unhealed trauma or anything like that. No, I feel like that needs to be dealt with prior that's a good point.

Caily: 1:08:17

As you say that, I'm like, oh my gosh, they are they. They are trauma bonding, they're connecting over over their trauma and I think, is that always a bad thing? I think it is important to do your own healing work, and sometimes it's hard to do alone, so maybe the identification with the depression and hurt can help them both get through it together is it good foundations to start a relationship on, though no, probably not, probably not.

Caily: 1:08:51

Um, because I think, yeah, I think maybe the similarities are the feelings of despair, right, but then once they both healed through that and that's not the the primary focus are are they compatible? Are they actually a good fit as a, as a couple, once they have done their healing? And I think that's that's the question, and I think I don't see them can compatible if they have both fully healed no, me neither, yeah.

Izzy: 1:09:24

So our argument is their only compatibility would be if neither of them heal, they continue to just bond over their trauma and just like stay in this kind of mellow state. That's very depressing, yeah, tragic.

Caily: 1:09:36

That's, that's terrible yeah, and I just I think it's gonna take Benic a longer to heal, but I really anticipate that Louisa bounces back, and so that's where I think that the divorce will happen.

Izzy: 1:09:56

I don't know, and I can see not wanting to be alone, but I feel like, if you've not dealt with because, like the way that the text describes Benic's feelings for the woman who dies, like that'd be so difficult and again that's he's got two awkward relationships there, like he's got Harville, who was the brother of the woman that he fell in love with. That's a constant reminder of this, his past, and then he's got, you know, went with an aunt and, like he said, and might have characteristics that are more preferable to him than what Louisa has. And so I think in like a in that sense, like also not ideal. I mean maybe they just go off and they just start like a fresh life and just like you know, new beginnings, like we've both suffered, let's just go and make, make something new of it, and I feel like that might work, you know, I mean, if they're just like, let's just go and start a fresh, like we've both had some pretty rubbish situations and let's just try and make the best of it together.

Caily: 1:10:50

If she were more like Ann, I'd be more likely than. Felida, but I just think she's, she's, her disposition is too different and she's too extraverted.

Izzy: 1:11:01

Also, I think as well, she's too inclined, because she's young, to hold her own mind and we see that a lot with the way that she is with Wentworth, like she's constantly like trying to pretend like she likes things he likes, that she's interested in things he's interested in. You see, very little of Louisa's true character, I think, because she's just trying to mold into what other people want and expect, which is absolutely a thing of age, because when you're younger you know being the preference of your peers and just like how people perceive you is so important that you do just mold into your environment. But yeah, I don't think that. I think with time, yeah, that would just become so clear and it would be awkward and I don't think, whatever Louisa's true character is, I don't think that would mesh with Benic.

Caily: 1:11:51

Yeah, like what you say about her true character, we don't really, we don't really know it. We do know that she has some wilfulness about her because she jump. She does make that jump when Wentworth, everyone tells her not to and then part of me is also thinking too do we know Benic's true character when he's not before loss, right like he's so depressed? What was he?

Izzy: 1:12:19

like before. Maybe he was like Louisa, maybe like when they healed up. If we just like this, this fun couple, you know you full fun couple right.

Caily: 1:12:28

So maybe I'm only seeing Benic as depressed, this depressed person, and I'm not able to see what he was like before because we do maybe he's just reading poetry because he's depressed.

Izzy: 1:12:39

It's really traumatic happens and you like look at sad quotes or like re-poetry and you just like, oh, resonate with this so much. You know like tragedy, but you know, like when you are feeling really lively in, like your best self, that there's probably other things that you prefer to do. You know what I mean. Like when I'm feeling my best self, I don't want to feel I want to read depressing poetry. I just can't because I don't relate with it and I'm not going to get anything from that. That's going to be like, oh, this person understands me. You know I'll be like I don't understand this person. This time.

Caily: 1:13:13

Yeah, the more we're talking about this, I'm like, okay, we see Louisa's lively side, right, like we see her before her, before the fall. We get to experience that, whereas when we meet Benic, the fall's already happened for him, right and in his own sense, like he, we, we only see him depressed. So, yeah, if, if we knew that, if he could have a lively or dispossession when he's not depressed. So I think that is a good thing to think about too. Maybe he and Louisa are more compatible than we know. We just didn't get to see that side of him, I know.

Izzy: 1:13:49

I would love that and maybe you know that comes because he heals Louisa as well. Because I think for a lot of men, like they're driving for sometimes, is that that purpose to be, you know, to provide for somebody, to like give your all to somebody. Do you know what I'm saying? Like just to be there for somebody and have that driving purpose. I'm not saying that's not the same for women as well.

Izzy: 1:14:09

I think it's absolutely, as you see, that women with children, but I think often like with partners, that can sometimes be a motivator for a man to be like, oh, I want to be there for you. Like I want to, you know, help you be okay again. Like I've been through what you've been through, like coming as a problem solver. Like I can help, I can help you. I can read your poetry, that's what helped me. Like, let's do that. What do you mean? Like I feel like there's a purpose in that, which I think Venik needs, because he's got no purpose at all to the book. He's just like lost the love of my life. It's tragic. Like my life has no meaning, whereas maybe looking after Louisa, having a woman that he can heal back to health, unlike his, the partner he died. That must actually be kind of healing in itself.

Caily: 1:14:57

I think that part is healing. That's a corrective experience for him. He can help. He can help someone, he can help her heal and I see how that's corrective from his way through died and he had no power to help heal her. But as you're talking, I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't get it out of my head that Louisa is going to be annoyed by the talk of poetry In turn. I can hear me talk about that with someone else.

Izzy: 1:15:26

Oh my God, yeah, but you know what actually just came to mind as well. I'm kind of getting Brandon Marianne dynamics from them as well.

Caily: 1:15:36

Oh, yes, yeah, that's actually that. That is a good. I've never thought about that parallel, but that's actually a good comparison. Brandon is so depressed. Brandon has this. I don't actually not idealize he has this first love that he just he loved her so intensely and will he ever find love again?

Izzy: 1:16:03

and then Louisa and Marianne are both these high spirited young girls and go through heartache like I mean they go through like this fall. They're both sick and I kind of nurse back to health and it's the man who is there for them in that time. That becomes the person that they want to be with, as opposed to the kind of more outgoing spirited man like Wentworth and Willoughby.

Caily: 1:16:30

That's really good. I never would have put that together, but I. That's a really similar comparison. We are too. Maybe we should rest in our solutions.

Izzy: 1:16:49

Oh my gosh, I kind of love that, though. That's brilliant. Yep, this is an unpopular opinion. I think it's an unpopular opinion, but it's my preference. I prefer the 2008 sense sensibility over the amatom someone.

Caily: 1:17:06

Oh my gosh. Okay, this one. Do you want to say why no?

Izzy: 1:17:14

I want to hate, okay, okay.

Caily: 1:17:19

This one. I want to have a strong opinion back, but I really love them both. I really love them both and I respect why you would say that. I mean, I think the 2008 version is honestly truer to the feeling in the book in a lot of ways. I think that the 1995 amatom version is. There's a lot of warmth and playfulness to it at times and I actually think sense and sensibility is extremely serious and melancholic in a lot of ways and I think that the 2008 version really captures that. Captures that the level of despair that Mary Ann goes through, eleanor's pain, even the cinematography and the weather is so reflective of what I felt reading the book. So I want to think I need to think about specific characters too, but I absolutely do love the 2008 version in a lot of ways. I'd love to hear specifically why you think it has the edge over the 1995.

Izzy: 1:18:31

I think for me, okay, some of it's definitely actually, I think a lot of it's custom for me. So the ages if the actors like are not being like offensive or anything in this. I don't want to come across incorrectly when I'm saying this, but, like the agents off, compared to the book, eleanor Mary Ann's age gap looks massive in the Emma Thompson one is in comparison to the book, where it's actually quite small. And also Alan Rickman is Brandon. I think that makes him look way older as well, because Alan Rickman is a lot older than the character he's playing.

Izzy: 1:19:10

Emma Thompson was a lot older than the character she was playing, and Willoughby as well. I mean, I really like the guy who plays Willoughby and everything, but that didn't quite fit for me either. He seemed so much older, whereas I really like the guy in Mom and Mia being in the 2008 one because he seemed so young and playful and just like the kind of person that you would have if you're inclined towards someone like Willoughby. He is somebody that you'd fall for and just be like oh my goodness, there's an incredible guy who was poetry and he's so handsome and all of that. Do you know what I mean? He's got that look about him and so I think a lot of it's me as cast in.

Izzy: 1:19:48

And I think it's the tone as well, because I agree, like when I read, I think that's probably why sensibility isn't up there for me is because I find it quite melancholy at times Because it is quite sad, and also there's something quite unsatisfying about the romantic relationships for me and sensibility. I think they are more realistic, but there's something about that for me that I'm just like it kind of depresses me slightly. So, yeah, I yeah I'm not massive on the either here. I like Brandon to be fair I think we talked about this that he's got loads of incredible qualities. I'm I just I'm saying that because we were looking directly at Brandon.

Izzy: 1:20:34

If I was thinking about who would I personally want to date? Brandon wanted to. He want to be a molest. Okay, that's just not, that's just not happening, okay. So in that sense, yeah, I think there's darker tones. To sense sensibility is quite sad. There's a lot of loss, there's a lot of potential loss, there's a lot of heartache. Oh, my goodness, like it's not so. It's more true to life. But I think that the 2008 one captures that and, like you said, the weather is just there is something quite gray and upsetting about it which I think is is really good in the 2008 one.

Caily: 1:21:03

Okay, I think you have a really good point about the ages. The ages are absolutely off. Right, emma Thompson is so wonderful and phenomenal and I hate criticizing her ever. I don't want to criticize her, she just is a lot older than Eleanor is supposed to be in the book, right? And Alan Rickman and Mary Ann's age difference it does. It does really portray Alan Rickman as more of an old man, and Colonel Brandon is supposed to be the wrong side, the wrong side of 35. So, right, we've talked about this in in episode two. So I think some of the stuff with a the ages are off and there's a more accurate representation in the 2008 version. I think Margaret in the 2008 version is absolutely phenomenal. I think she's so well utilized. I agree with you, with Willoughby as well, that there's this bad boy mischievousness and sex appeal about him. In the 2008 version, like you can see how he would seduce someone, whereas Greg Wise in 1995, who's Emma Thompson's husband in real life, which is so hilarious.

Izzy: 1:22:23

Yeah, there's so many, isn't it?

Caily: 1:22:25

It's so funny that Willoughby and Eleanor end up it together.

Izzy: 1:22:29

Oh my God, it's a total side note, but he was on strictly and Emma Thompson was in the crowd like watching, like I think it was like a few years back now, but I was just like so, like, like well, I mean you know, I know every time I see them in a picture together I'm like um, but I find Greg Wise pretty regal actually, and I don't see him having the shiftiness that that Willoughby has in the in the book.

Caily: 1:22:54

So I think 2008 better cast in that way, I mean I I think it's closer. I think it's the two adaptations are closer for me because they're things that I appreciate, appreciate about both of them. I think that both Mary Ann's do a phenomenal job. They're both good at being done. You see the despair that both of them go through. You see how they're both extremely headstrong and emotional but aloof to it when they they don't approve of something. I think both of them are really well cast.

Caily: 1:23:38

It's close for me. It's close for me and I think, because sense and sensibility is so sad right and because the relationships aren't satisfying and because the situation with Willoughby and Mary Ann is so incredibly devastating, I do like watching the 1995 version because they add a little bit of warmth and help the characters. It is a little bit more satisfying to me at the end, like I always tear up at the scene where they have Margaret and the treehouse going. He's kneeling down and I think Emma Thompson does such a great job of the totally living control and weeping at the end. I think that's so well done as well.

Izzy: 1:24:27

there was another comment that I saw that is kind of similar to this and that is that Emma Thompson comes across more like her mom, like because of the age difference, and I think that's so true. I feel like sometimes it's easy when you're watching that one to see this the dynamic being an age difference in their like, the way that they go about things and their characteristics when actually it's not an age thing, it's a personality thing. You know they're not. Eleanor's personality and Marian's personality are different. That is the clash. It's not that there's such an age gap between them that Eleanor's got all this life experience, but I think Emma Thompson's version makes it look like it's life experience. That causes Eleanor to judge Marianne more, and it's Marianne's age. That's why she's so playful. And actually I think the point of sensibility is that it's characteristics. It's not yeah, it's not experience. You know they have basically the same life experience up until that point.

Caily: 1:25:25

That is a very good point. When you say that, I do think about when Emma Thompson and Kate Winslet are interacting. Particularly when Emma Thompson is comforting Kate Winslet, it does feel more maternal. You do see the age gap. You do see that Emma Thompson has more life experience and you're right that there isn't that much of an age gap in the book. And I do think I do think that what is her name? Hattie Morhan, or the girl who plays Eleanor in the 2008 version? She's closer in age with Marianne and you see more of the stoicism about her. Eleanor is supposed to be emotional internally, but she demonstrates such a stoicism and I do think Emma Thompson is a little bit more. You can read her emotions more like she's a little bit more warm and fluffy than Eleanor actually is.

Izzy: 1:26:27

Yes, oh, and then I was just thinking about Edward Ferris as well. Like I think I actually do like Hugh Grant's version of Edward because I feel like he gives him a bit more life, because, but then I think about the book and I'm like, does Edward have that much life? But then I'm like the 2008 guy. He's actually more appealing than the book version of Edward. So I'm like, yeah, I'm not sure.

Izzy: 1:26:51

I feel like Hugh Grant's version makes Edward seem a little bit more bumbly, which I don't think is accurate, but also makes him seem like a wet lettuce, which is accurate. So a little bit like, do you know what I mean? But then I think the 2008 one he's more sensitive and quiet and just a bit awkward and I feel like that's true. But he also comes across kind of charming and a bit of a catch where I'm also just like Edward's not no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I think both would make a lot of sense to me, but I think Edward's a hard character to play anyway, because it's what was Edward's driving purpose in life. The guys are floater. He just floats for your life. You know what I mean. Like how'd you play somebody like?

Caily: 1:27:37

I think both adaptations portray Edward in a much more favorable way. I think, you know, a lot of people say that Eleanor deserved better than Edward and I think both adaptations adaptations make Edward more likable Because, yeah, when I read all of his complaining and in the book, I have a difficult time with him. I think that I loved you, just like I was like such a moment for you, Like I have a difficult time with this. I think he has moments of his complaining and oh, he's so not who I would want to be with. But I like both Edwards and the adaptations.

Caily: 1:28:22

But I will say, in the, I keep thinking Matthew from downtown, the Edward who plays, is in the 2008 version. He's almost a different character. He is a catch, but he's so charming and eloquent and I think I Hugh Grant to me does a better job of balancing having Edward be more sweet and likable. But actually Hugh Grant is a little bit bumbling and awkward and I do see Edward as awkward. He doesn't know how to string a sentence together and he doesn't know what to say and I think you see that insecurity about Hugh Grant and that tenetiveness, but it's more endearing than it is in the book, if that makes sense.

Izzy: 1:29:10

I love that, yeah, the moment when Lucy Steele turns up and he's like, and I'm just like, that's so funny, that's like the funniest scene ever. And also I feel like he walks with like a bit of a plot, like he's got I don't give a Mr Collins vibe about him, which I think actually is kind of accurate, because he, yeah, I think there's something, there's something unlikeable about Edward in the book. That's like you can't quite place it because you're like you're not a bad guy, you're just not doing anything. Like you're just not, you know, I mean it's not somebody that you're like oh wow, gosh. Like you really put yourself on the line for me. Like a dorsy thing, or, gosh, that declaration of love just knocked me for 10. Like a wet worth, you know what I mean. You just like, it's just like Edward just like flops in the door. It's me Edward, bit shy, bit of a wet lettuce, will you take me? And it's like no, I do.

Caily: 1:30:07

I love the 2008 version, but I can't say I love it more than the 1995. They're so equal to me, because the 1995 version just has these gem moments. Like it is so true. You took me back to that moment where he walks in the room and sees Eleanor and he's like Miss Dashwood and he's like looking at her with such loving eyes he doesn't realize that Eleanor is left and Eleanor is like, oh my God, please. And then Lucy's stirring daggers. I just so good.

Izzy: 1:30:36

There are parts that are I don't know that I said that and I start thinking about the specific scenes as well. I'm like, actually, that there were some cracking moments in that one. There's just some really good scenes and it's funny. It's funny as well, yeah, and I, you know that's a testament to Emma Thompson, you know, in her writing and for the screenplay, I think, is that she captures like the funny side of Austin's novels, which I don't think always comes through in sense sensibility, but I think it is. There's something right about trying to showcase that in adaptations as well, because if you should only experience one adaptation, say your whole life, a Jane Austen adaptation, I think there's something about capturing who Jane Austen is in that moment. Do you know what I mean? Even if that's not showcased in the book, it's just like capturing her as an author as well. I think there is something about that and staying true to who she is as well as what the book is.

Caily: 1:31:33

Exactly, I think it's. There's no harm in making parts of a story that have a lot of tragic elements balanced, balanced out with some feel good moments.

Caily: 1:31:45

And there is. So it is so funny. I mean, I'm just thinking of some of the side characters, I think Mr Palmer in the 1995 version he's just so funny, why don't you stop? And he's just like such a good grump. And Mrs Jennings in the 1995 version. Charlotte, I think. Even though it's not exactly true to the book, and the 2008 version captures the book better in a lot of ways, I do think that 1995 has its brilliance.

Izzy: 1:32:19

Yes, and there's something magical when an adaptation does that right. I feel like that's the same with the 2005 one. There's a lot that isn't accurate to the book in that adaptation, but we love the 2005 Pride and Prejudice right, Just because there's something cinematically that it captures and I feel like that's probably the same with Emma Thompson's version is there's just something about it. There's a magic there that you don't feel upset about, like you would like, like I did with. Like the persuasion, like the Netflix persuasion where it just felt like a betrayal, Whereas there's something beautiful about the way that Emma Thompson captures the sense and sensibility. That is no, it's not necessarily a mirror of the book, but it's. There's something like you know that she's, it's come from the heart. You know what I mean. Like you know that she's got such an understanding of it and then she's created something like amazing. That's that's an adaptation, isn't it? That is, that is the point.

Izzy: 1:33:11

That, for me, is an adaptation, and that's what I struggled with with the new persuasion that I was like if they just said this is inspired by, I'll be way more comfortable. I don't think you know what I mean. There's something about an adaptation is that you can capture everything that's like incredible and then you, just you make it something not completely new, but something that's got the essence of the book and an essence of something new. But if you take it in it doesn't capture the magic of the book in the first place. I'm just like Call it inspired by you know, like Clueless or Bridget Jones, Like don't. Oh, the same thing, it's not.

Caily: 1:33:47

I love how overtly he is. I'm feeling betrayed by the new persuasion because, I'm sorry, I feel exactly the same way. Anne Elliot was not even remotely the same character at all. You were sweat blood, why it went much slower than this.

Izzy: 1:34:04

The guy is strategic. He's a little bit manipulative. He's arrogant as hell. You know what I mean. Went with an 80% of persuasion. Let's be clear, it's a bit of a douchebag, like he's. We forgive him in the end and we know he's going through some like emotional turmoil. You know that he's in love with Anne. He doesn't know what to do with these feelings. He thinks it's unrequited. I feel for him like this is he's got some stuff going on for sure. His behaviour is so bad. It's so bad. You know what I mean. So, and I'm just like in the persuasion thing he's like oh, it's me, wentworth, I'm trying to move on from you. Let's talk on the beach and we can be friends.

Izzy: 1:34:48

It's like Wentworth was not doing that. Wentworth was like here's a snarky comment across the table which only Anne will understand. That's kind of funny to me. I'm looking for any woman, any woman who makes me smile. I'm like like some sort of player Like this is me new Wentworth, I'm a player now. I'm up for any woman except Anne-Lia, not Anne. Not Anne, but I'm not going to tell anybody why that's the case. But no, not Anne.

Caily: 1:35:10

Oh, it makes me so mad even thinking about it. Yeah, but in the case that movie is off, whereas I really think I loved exactly what you said about Emma Thompson. It's so clearly had so many details from Sense and Sensibility in that adaptation and I feel like the creative license that she used was to round it out and make it balance out the tragedy and make it slightly, a little bit more lighthearted and feel good.

Caily: 1:35:40

And I think for that time I mean I'm like 1995, to me feels like not that long ago, but it was and I think in that time for movies, most movies were about having a happy ending, having something that's feel good.

Caily: 1:35:59

And I feel like only recently a lot of movies will leave you with an unsatisfying ending or that it isn't all wrapped up. So I think she I just feel like her creative license was intentional and it was to engage the audience and it wasn't just random things that had nothing to do with the story. Anyway, I can't think about the persuasion. There's so many ways it makes me angry.

Izzy: 1:36:23

But yeah, I want to say like I mean it's got to be the worst book to have to try and adapt. But I think I mean a lot of. I've read a lot of stuff that says, like the whole team big Jane Austen fans and everything, for whatever reason, that doesn't come across in the new persuasion. If they are big Jane Austen fans, that's sure, but it doesn't come across, whereas I feel like in Emma Thompson's version it comes across that she's a big Jane Austen fan, like you can feel it, because she captures, like I said, the magic of it and you see that with, like Andrew Davis as well, with all of his adaptations, you know, I mean like you can, just you can feel his understanding of her works.

Izzy: 1:37:02

And that's what I didn't. I feel that and I didn't. I know this might be unpopular, we've not really got much time but I know this might be slightly unpopular and this is something we can break off and have fun. I didn't feel that in the newest Emma either. I don't feel the magic of the text and I feel like that might be slightly controversial, but yeah, I didn't.

Caily: 1:37:23

Yeah, yeah, we should. Maybe we should talk about this and, yeah, in more depth in another episode. But there were a lot of things I liked about the new Emma as a film. I liked some of the soundtrack I thought was interesting, but I agree, Emma was really overly cold and it just wasn't. It was much better to me than personally. I was a bit of a persuasion and maybe, yeah, but it just wasn't. It didn't feel like someone who intimately knew the text.

Izzy: 1:37:58

No, there's something that I can't explain that.

Izzy: 1:38:00

You can either get or you can't. It doesn't matter how alike the text is. Even that matters to that, because I feel like clueless. Just such a fantastic job of capturing Emma and that's like it's so different, Like most people don't even know. It's like an Emma adaptation. Do you know what I mean? There's I don't know what it is, but there is something you have to get or you don't. When you're adapting something, you have to feel it or you don't. And I don't know what that is, but it's something.

Caily: 1:38:28

Well, even Bridget Jones's Diary. There are certain parts where they there's almost exact lines and sentiments, like like when Mark Darcy says I like you, just as you are sort of in this funny awkward. There are just certain parts where you can tell it's someone who intimately knows. Jane Austin is modernizing the language.

Izzy: 1:38:52

Yes, oh my God, and then casting Colin Firth in in, like the film versions. It's just absolutely genius, come on, that's what I mean, though there's things that you, there's things that just make sense to an Austin fan and you recognize it in other Austin fans and you recognize it in the work that they create, like. I noticed that a lot now with reading, retellings and everything. There's a recognition that you can have with another Austin fan, even just by, like, experiencing their work. Yeah, and I don't know, we've got a sense for it. It's like it's a, it's a door. We've got it. We've got a Jane door. We know You're, you're, you're, you're the.

Caily: 1:39:33

Jane door. I love the Jane door and now that we're talking Bridget Jones' diary and like, hugh Grant is also in that and Hugh Grant's Edward, but he sort of plays this CAD Willoughby character in. Bridget Jones. So there are just yeah, I think there are a lot of Bridget.

Izzy: 1:39:51

Jones that the casting is just kind of genius, to be fair, because like in Hugh Grant, he was just like such, like the heart of Rob. It's like it almost like meta, isn't it? It's so funny. Yeah, yeah, that's brilliant.

Caily: 1:40:06

This was so. This is so much fun. I'm so glad you brought that one up as an unpopular. I have always adored both adaptations of sense and sensibility, and I feel like a lot of people don't haven't seen the 2008 version. So I'm just. I would love to talk more about the 2008 version of sense and sensibility, but people have seen it.

Izzy: 1:40:28

Yes, yeah, maybe we should do more adaptation based episodes as well, cause I feel like there is a lot to be said, and I think there's a lot to be said just in preference. And then, obviously, there's a lot to be said in terms of, like, people who actually understand what it is to create a film. Okay, we'll, we'll wrap it up there, cause I feel like we've covered quite a lot today. So, yeah, that's everything from us. If you want to keep up to date everything going on the podcast, be sure to follow me over on Instagram at what the Austin, because I share all updates over there. Please subscribe, follow, rate the podcast. All of those things really do help to get more eyeballs and more ears on the podcast, so I would really appreciate that. It would be really amazing to grow the community this year. I want to, you know, reach more Jnites. That would be awesome. But, kaylee, that is everything from me. Do you want to add anything?

Caily: 1:41:19

Join the book club. The book club is so much fun and we can talk more in depth about all different topics. We're reading persuasion right now, so I just think that's also just a great way to connect if you want to get more involved.

Izzy: 1:41:31

Yeah, if you ever wanted to speak to me and Kaylee, join the book club, because you guys chat to us all the time. If you're ever just like, oh my gosh, I disagree with them so much, join the book club and you can tell us.

Caily: 1:41:44

I also love seeing the comments with disagreements too. It just helps me think about things in a new way. So, yeah, love, love all the interaction. Love getting DMs too, so don't hesitate to reach out if you strongly agree or if there's something where you're like no YouTube, are wrong.

Izzy: 1:42:00

Yeah, absolutely, but that is everything from us today and we will see you in another episode.