Episode 66: Sense & Self Sacrifice an Elinor Dashwood analysis with Olivia @OliviasCatastrophe

What happens when emotional repression and self-sacrifice shape your life? Join me and booktuber Olivia-Savannah from Olivia's Catastrophe as we explore Elinor Dashwood's character from Jane Austen's "Sense and Sensibility." Together, we delve into key scenes that reveal Elinor's emotional burdens and how she often adopts a more masculine energy by becoming the mediator and strength for everyone else in the book.

We compare Elinor's stoicism with Marianne's emotional expressiveness, discussing how others' expectations shape their experiences. We examine Elinor's relationships with Lucy, Willoughby, and Edward, and discuss the impact of "eldest daughter syndrome" on her. Through this exploration, we appreciate Elinor's strength and growth, highlighting the enduring themes of emotional acknowledgement and personal development in Austen's work. We discover that Elinor is the true heroine of this novel, but we also consider the sacrifices she makes to claim that spot in a fictional world dictated by Sensibility.

Where can you find Olivia?
Youtube: @OliviasCatastrophe
Instagram: Olivia-Savannah @OliviasCatastrophe

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Transcript

Speaker 2: 0:19

hi, jay knights and welcome back to the what the austin podcast. I am joined by booktuber olivia from olivia's catastrophe. So, um, we've got some topic lined up. Today. It's maybe going to be a little bit push and pull in terms of like how serious it gets, because I feel like some of this topic could get more on like the darker side and the sadder side, but also I think it's a really important one to talk about and we're going to be discussing Eleanor Dashwood and particularly the way that she kind of represses her emotions, the way that she self-sacrifices for her family and everybody else's situations really. So I'm calling this episode Sense and Self-Sacrifice and Eleanor Dashwood's Story. So welcome, olivia, and also kudos to you for coming up with this idea, because I think it's a fabulous topic.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Thank you. I just really love Sense and Sensibility. I hate to break it to the Pride and Prejudice fans, but I do think it's the best Jane Austen book and Eleanor Dashwood is my favourite character.

Speaker 2: 1:17

I love that. Then See perfect topic. This is the thing. I'm so excited to talk about it. The question I ask all my guests, though, before we get into things, is what got you into Jane Austen?

Speaker 1: 1:27

originally it was actually my older sister who really loves Jane Austen's books, and for one Christmas she bought me the complete works of Jane Austen in this beautiful edition set. And afterwards she told me I confess I got you a gift that I wanted to get myself, but it did make me start reading all of Austin and I just fell in love from there oh, I love that.

Speaker 2: 1:49

She. You know she was thinking long term. She's like I want my sister to enjoy this too, so that we can discuss. I love that exactly. It really was a gift for her as well. It was a gift for both of you, oh dear. And I'd also love to know, um how you started your booktube and you know everything that you chat about on there.

Speaker 1: 2:07

It'd be good for the listeners to know as well so, yes, I have a booktube channel called Olivia's Catastrophe, and once upon a time it was a book blog where I was reviewing books and basically just trying to fangirl a bit more online about things that I was enjoying reading. And then YouTube became up and coming and I thought what if I tried the video format? And it's where I found like my bigger passion for it just talking and expressing my thoughts. So I did that all through uni and I'm still doing it now, talking about a range of different kinds of books.

Speaker 2: 2:39

I love that and I totally recommend checking out Olivia's channel because it's really great. You give me so many good recommendations. What I love about your channel is you recommend a lot of stuff that I don't see everywhere, because I feel like sometimes, especially on social media, you can see the same books recommended over and over again, but you've recommended like so many things to me that I'm like I've not seen that anywhere.

Speaker 1: 2:57

I really want to read it I just love to read such a different range of books, and I think there's quite a lot of underrated gems that I tend to look for. Rather than like synopsis or genre, I tend to look for themes, and that's where you can get some really unique books in there.

Speaker 2: 3:16

Yeah, I'd love that. So, based off today's topic, one quote that I wanted to pull out, because I feel like this really summarizes Eleanor's journey throughout, and it's actually a quote that comes really late on. It's once Edward reappears just before he proposes and she says well, she kind of says to herself in her mind I will be calm, I will be mistress of myself, and the will in my copy both times was capitalized, and I think for me that quote just really stands out for how she is throughout the whole novel. Um, she very much, um is able to process her own emotions alone. And I think what's important for this topic that we want to discuss is is that a burden or not? And you know what? To what extent does she do that in? Does she sacrifice a lot in doing that?

Speaker 1: 4:08

and I think it's also really interesting to consider whether she wants to do that, because in this novel a lot of the situations are where she's been told things in trust and therefore she has time to process alone before she can talk to others, whereas, if given the choice, I wonder if maybe she would have talked things over if other people's situations had been a bit more calm themselves, so she would have that space to talk about it yes, I love this and I think this brings us really nicely onto um, the first scene, um that you pointed out because I think it links to a few others.

Speaker 2: 4:40

but the first scene we want to talk about talk a little bit about anyway is, um, when Colonel Brandon asks Eleanor to inform Edward of the living that he has at Delaford, um, as a clergyman, and how this throws Eleanor into a conflict between, obviously, like her own emotions, what she's going through, and also wanting the best for Edward and wanting him to have this living, um, but obviously, in having the living, that means well, she initially thinks he's able to marry Lucy, so that's obviously quite difficult for her. But yeah, I'd love to know your thoughts, olivia, and why you in particular, this scene really stood out to you.

Speaker 1: 5:17

I just feel like it was a scene with the greatest amount of self-sacrifice.

Speaker 1: 5:20

I've read the fact that she doesn't even like Lucy that much, who he's supposed to get married to. So the fact that she's aware that she doesn't like Lucy and Lucy's kind of been low-key trying to manipulate her within those conversations, and yet she's still thinking I love this person and I want to put his, his happiness, ahead of mine. I think that's just massive amounts of self-sacrifice, as you mentioned, and I find it also really interesting because she hasn't heard firsthand from him at any point that this is actually what would make him happy. All she knows is that he's in a tough situation financially and from Lucy's side of view he would be happy because of it. But she doesn't have the chance to fact check that with him. So either which way this conversation she's going to have with him whether it was originally going to be by letter and then ends up in person, it's going to be a big. Either which way it's going to be a big blow to her to see his reaction to that, whether he's truly happy or not.

Speaker 2: 6:20

And I found that just that whole scene was just so intense emotionally yeah, and the fact that she sits there like pondering what she's even going to write down, because initially she wants to write it out in a letter and then she's just like sat there reflecting, like what do I even say? And how do I say it in a way that does show that I do want the best for him, even though we've never discussed the fact that we have feelings for each other and that's not going to work out because, I mean, this is like I do have a bit. I do have quite a few problems with Edward. This is one of them.

Speaker 2: 6:50

The fact that he never addresses it, because I feel like that in itself would lift a lot of burden from Eleanor if he himself addressed it, because a lot of her suffering comes that she is, you know, all this gaslighting with lucy, that lucy's able to manipulate and attack her in such a secretive way. It's it's really dark, it really creeps me out a little bit. Um, but yeah, I think for me I would have preferred edward to address the situation himself, to to save eleanor that kind of this situation where it feels awkward to her, she doesn't know what to say yeah, I do think in some ways Edward is not the perfect love interest.

Speaker 1: 7:30

As much as I want Eleanor to be happy, he could definitely step up in this situation and just be a bit. I don't want to say be a man, because that perpetuates a lot of sexist and masculine, toxic masculinity ideals, but he does need to like. If you have feelings for someone, you've got to make them clear, otherwise you're going to end up in such difficult situations and in some ways this is where both of them, like both Edward and Eleanor, have a lot of sensibility and sense of responsibility and duty and they're quite well matched in that way. So Edward is, from his perspective at least, still trying to do the things that he should do, and Eleanor is also trying to do the things that he should do, which I find interesting, as they're supposed to be a match for each other romantically as well. I know.

Speaker 2: 8:15

See, for me I think, if we, if we go based off energies, um, in terms of like masculine and feminine, I mean this is something I could get really passionate about and do a whole deep dive on. But I personally feel that Eleanor stands more in her masculine throughout the whole novel and Edward stands more in his feminine, like he. Eleanor seems to be the person that's really taking charge. She is looking after her family and I know Edward sticks with Lucy, but for a lot of it he's very passive and he's just kind of taking what comes.

Speaker 2: 8:43

I love that Eleanor and Marianne they both actually reference the fact that because everyone's like, oh, how terrible that his mum's cut him off, in Eleanor and Marianne they have this kind of it's not, it's not voiced, but they have this acknowledgement between the two of them that they know that actually that's not a big blow to him because he doesn't like his family anyway, and I think that's always really interesting, and so I think he puts her in a in a really tricky situation. I mean, he's got to know that she's like spending time with Lucy and everything, because he's already come across them together at one point. So, yeah, I just think it's. It's a bit of cowardice, isn't it which I really struggle with?

Speaker 1: 9:19

it is a bit of cowardice and it's also, I think, a lot of assumption as well. I think he he doesn't assume the effect that he's had on, he doesn't take the chance to assume that maybe he's had an effect on Eleanor and Eleanor doesn't take the chance to assume that she he is also aware of the fact that she has feelings and that lack of communication although it's also due to its time period and what can be said and what can't be said and what isn't isn't proper. There's a lot of assumption happening and I think that also expands more like large scale to colonel brandon and marianne's dealing with this situation as well, because marianne's so lost in her heartbreak that she's, she just assumes that eleanor can't be feeling these emotions and doesn't take the time to consider them and she's like you don't understand me, you must be happy now. And Eleanor even tries to signal to Marianne like maybe I'm not happy and there's just no recognition there of those feelings.

Speaker 2: 10:21

Yes, and I'd love to chat I definitely want to get into that a bit more about this kind of neglect of eleanor's feelings by actually most of the characters within the novel, because eleanor works as this kind of filter throughout where she seems to bear the burden of everybody's secrets everybody's, I, everyone else's emotions, you know, even even we see that with brandon, which I think would be good to touch on um, what really stood out to me with this point, when Edward then shows up unexpectedly and she's able to tell him in person, what hit me the most is when he leaves and there's a quote that says and with this pleasing anticipation she sat down to reconsider the past, recall the words and endeavored to comprehend all the feelings of Edward and, of course, to reflect on her own with discontent.

Speaker 2: 11:05

And I just think there's there's all of these moments where Eleanor has to do the brave thing. She has to, you know, voice something that someone else has told her, like this, where she's got to tell him, like you've got this living, and you know this means you can get married, and I know about that too, and you know, I hope, like I wish the best for you, um, and she has to put on this brave face, only then to be left alone again and have to deal with her own emotions privately.

Speaker 1: 11:34

I heard someone say that Eleanor is an INFJ and I strongly believe that, because there's something about that emotional control to put aside your feelings to get something done. But then also the self-awareness of I do need to sort through these feelings. It's not like I'm putting aside these emotions and I'm going to put them aside indefinitely. She's like I need to do the thing that needs to be done and then I can take the time to process. And I do think there's something to be said about processing your emotions before you do a task, because then maybe it'll enlighten you on how best to handle it or where there's holes in the knowledge that you have which she didn't realize. But yeah, I just find it interesting that she does acknowledge she needs to take the time to sort through her emotions and that there is no one else to do it with except herself. And so she still gives herself that time, which I thought I find quite admirable in her character. But it is just such a lonely place for her to be in yes, I agree.

Speaker 2: 12:36

I also can kind of relate to it slightly, though, because I know that I prefer to reflect on certain emotions or situations on my own at least first, like before I get other people's opinions and everything in, because I just think if I want to make a decision on something or I've got to act on something, I'd rather know that it came, that it was my like, it was my choice, I did it from a place of like my truest self, as opposed to being influenced by everybody else.

Speaker 2: 13:05

But I do kind of get why she wants to do this, because and additionally I suppose in her situation, everybody around her who she could confide in a lot of them are there. They have no emotional regulation. And if you have such strong emotional regulation, I actually think it'd be quite daunting to then go to somebody who doesn't and tell your what's going on with you. Because if they react so differently which we see a lot in this novel with, like Marianne and her mum, like maybe you start thinking am I not, am I like? Am I evil? Am I crazy for not expressing my emotions in the same way?

Speaker 1: 13:41

I get that completely and I do agree with you. Like I do like to process my emotions first and I think one of the benefits of having multiple sisters like I do, with different emotional temperaments is that I usually go away and feel my emotions, make a decision and then, like, parade it around the sisters and get lots of different perspectives on the choice. But of course, in some ways she only has Marianne and we don't get to hear about Margaret whatsoever, so we have no idea what Margaret's emotional reaction to this would be. But yeah, it does seem like the people she can talk to is really limited, and even in terms of friends she does have Colonel Brandon as her closest friend, but by creating this offer to try and make her happier, he's kind of cut himself off from being that confidant as well yes, that is so true.

Speaker 2: 14:31

Yeah, because again, he doesn't know. And I suppose you can say you know, this is the. This is the downfall of not telling anyone, because can you be upset if someone triggers you? If they never knew it was a trigger, you know? You can't really, can you? And I've been there myself like someone says something, I'm like, oh, that hurt, but obviously they don't know, so I can't be upset with them.

Speaker 2: 14:53

For you know, saying that, um, but yeah, and also Brandon, he uses Eleanor as a confidant and he, um, is extremely vulnerable with her.

Speaker 2: 15:04

Like I just feel like throughout the whole novel, eleanor is very much a filter for other people's emotions, like Brandon really breaks down to her and tells her about you know, his past, love eliza in her story and his ward eliza, her story, and it's. It's quite incredible to me that he is so vulnerable and open with eleanor. But again, what a burden. Because then eleanor has to, she has to be the one to tell marianne about the situation with Willoughby in Eliza Take Two, and isn't that such a massive thing. Like she really struggles with that and how she's going to tell Marianne and how Marianne's going to react. Like it's never just. How do I tell this person it's she's trying to manage their emotion back as well. She's like how will they react and what am I going to do about that? And I think that's draining and exhausting. And'd love to know your, your thoughts on that the way that she kind of filters everybody else's stories.

Speaker 1: 15:59

I also find it particularly interesting that you mentioned like Colonel Brandon being the one who is so emotionally vulnerable to her, because I also find it quite a bit unfair that he brings it to Eleanor because in some ways he seems like at least when you first meet him also quite a character who carries a lot of that stoicness within him as well from the way that he engages with Marianne or doesn't engage.

Speaker 1: 16:24

You could say so for someone who's so stoic to get so emotional with Eleanor so quickly. No wonder some people think that he's interested in Eleanor instead. And he is also lacking that self-awareness of what effect it can have on Eleanor and the position it puts her in as Marianne's sister who now knows someone else is interested in her other than Willoughby, and I don't know. I'm so surprised that Colin L Brandon doesn't really take the time to consider Eleanor's emotions more. For someone who considers everybody else's emotions, like later on with the mother he's really considerate of how he breaks the news of Marianne being ill and what he does to bring her there. He's so considerate when he's talking to Marianne or when she's running away from him or whatever he's. He's so on it in every other regard that I'm surprised people cannot see the bigger picture, apart from Eleanor oh, I love.

Speaker 2: 17:26

I've never thought about it this way, but I love this point so much, it's so true. Yes, he puts so much burden on her because, I mean, what are things I have to tell your sister? I feel like everybody really overestimates alan, or like I think she's a wonderful person, absolutely, but I feel like they really overestimate how much she can take and they just keep piling it on and, like you said, he tiptoes around everybody else and I wonder if this again links back to that notion that alan or really just stand more in her masculine and so there's that assumption that she can bear more and so and I think that's maybe why they're friends as well, because I feel like, out of all of the male characters, brandon and also stands more in his masculine. So I wonder if that's why he sees her more as like a I don't want to say her bro, but like do you know what I mean? Like she's she. Maybe he sees her in such a different way and he's like, oh, she can bear the weight of this it makes. I don't know if you've ever seen Encanto, but you know the sister he's like really strong, and then she does that whole song about how it's. You know, everybody thinks I can take all of this, but actually I can't. It's too much sometimes. And yeah, I think it's interesting that Brandon also does that.

Speaker 2: 18:30

And then we see it again with Willoughby. How wrong, like the burden that he puts on her. Eleanor has to be this person that always has to break the bad news to people. And she is so sensitive, like, even though she's not overt about it, like Marianne is, she actually inward, is so sensitive that she's always trying to think oh, how am I going to say this and what's it going to do to this person? And especially when marianne's ill, she's absolutely terrified. She's like what if I tell my sister this? Like I need to tell her. But also like, is this gonna make her more sick? I don't even know. And she tries to tell willoughby to stop telling her as well. She's like, please don't tell me anymore. The guy carries on. He's actually a bit volatile. I hate that scene.

Speaker 1: 19:13

He's so awful also just even removing marianne from the situation. Eleanor's sister almost just died like. Is this the right moment to be talking to her about this kind of thing? She's just out of the blue of worrying about her sister's life and the mother is still not even there yet. So it's it's just the wrong situation completely and a testament to willoughby's villainy that he is continuing to offload to make himself feel a bit better in this particular moment yes, you know what's interesting as well, do you think this is why eleanor is so in love and continues to have feelings for Edward?

Speaker 2: 19:55

because he's like the only man in the book who doesn't seem to burden with his emotions, like maybe that's like. She sees that as like, oh, thank goodness. Like he doesn't burden me with all this emotions and he just he doesn't even see him through most of the novel. The guy's often hiding for most of the novel, unable to deal with his problems. But maybe in Eleanor's mind she's like this is the only man who gives me peace.

Speaker 1: 20:18

It's like he can't deal with his problems, but at least he's trying to deal with them himself rather than coming to me. This is. This is so attractive, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 20:27

he can't deal with his problems, but at least he's not sharing them with me, troubling me with them, exactly. Oh my gosh. It's so true, though, she really does bear a lot. And what's really interesting, as well as the narrative itself, like if, whether you want to say the narrative is austin or you know just the narrator, but, um, the narrative actually says poor eleanor, this is just before, um, they're saying about, like, having to go to delaford as a way to help Marianne get home in a quicker manner, but also that isn't too strenuous. And the narrative says poor Eleanor, here was a new scheme for getting her to Delaford, but her spirit was stubborn.

Speaker 2: 21:07

I just think it's so interesting that, you know, in this moment, the narrator themselves actually addresses Eleanor's terrible situation like poor Eleanor, here we go again, like this is another thing, um, that nobody considers, like even down to that. Even the thought of getting Marianne home is all about Marianne. How's Marianne going to be more comfortable? And I get that she's really sick and everything, and you know they want to make sure that she's not troubled because she's really struggling with her heartbreak, but it's as if nobody thinks about um Eleanor at all in, like the impact that will have she's always the afterthought, like as you said here.

Speaker 1: 21:45

It's like she's gonna have to end up close to Edward in this situation and everybody was really worried about Marianne, even seeing Willoughby around, but for Eleanor they don't even consider it and I think she has a conversation with her brother and he's like I always thought Marianne was going to be the one to marry well and I always thought she was the most beautiful. Don't worry, you're beautiful too, but now you might be the more beautiful, now you might marry better and it's wow. She's really just the second choice to everyone, even though she is the older sibling, which I find very, very interesting. It seems like at the start of the novel that Marianne will be the main character and by the end of the book I strongly feel that Eleanor is the main character.

Speaker 2: 22:29

I feel like Eleanor is just the character in the book. I swear like everything goes through Eleanor, it's just. It amazes me that it's not more kind of even that the narrator doesn't mimic more of Eleanor, because if we think of books like Emma, who very much is the main character, even the narrative kind of mimics her, but we follow Eleanor throughout this whole story. I mean, marianne's in bed for some of it. We never see Edward, colonel Brandon just rocks up occasionally. The only person who's consistent in the book is Eleanor, and she seems to have to deal with every single section of the plot as well, which is really interesting. So I agree, I think she's definitely the main character.

Speaker 2: 23:07

Um, there was something that really stood out to me as well, which is really fascinating, because I think one of the most uncomfortable parts in Eleanor bearing other people's information is when she has to tell Marianne that Lucy and Edward are engaged, so the news doesn't break to her publicly and I just think isn't it so interesting how much she filters this moment, even though it's it's her pain. She's so concerned about Marianianne in the quote around. This honestly actually makes me angry, makes me really dislike marianne. It says, um, she was very far from wishing to dwell on her own feelings, this is eleanor or to represent herself as suffering much. Her narration was clear and simple, and though it could not be given without emotion, it was not accompanied by violent agitation or impetuous grief. That belonged rather to the hearer, for Marianne listened with horror and cried excessively. I just think how selfish Like that moment alone just makes me feel how self-centered Marianne's been to this point in the novel and how neglected Eleanor's been in comparison in how neglected Eleanor's been in comparison.

Speaker 1: 24:13

I feel like if, in this moment, marianne had acknowledged what was said and then taken the moment to comfort Eleanor, I would forgive her for a lot of the ignorance that she's faced up until this point, because she has been caught in her own love story and that is a bit of a like wishy-washy in the clouds feeling. But this is so clearly showing Eleanor's emotional suffering and yet she still just takes it back to herself, and so that is actually a pretty big low for Marianne, I have to admit.

Speaker 2: 24:44

I know I feel like the redemption Marianne has is that after her illness and when she's able to reflect on her own, she realizes her error and how much she's neglected Marianne.

Speaker 2: 24:55

And I kind of love that she has that time for reflection, because Eleanor does so much for Marianne throughout the whole novel, like she's always there comforting, she's always there trying to smooth the way after Marianne's been rude in public or done something embarrassing.

Speaker 2: 25:10

And, um, what's interesting is Eleanor warns Marianne and her mum or at least tries to, quite early on about, like, her concerns with Willoughby, her concerns with the finances, and every time she does she's shut down as being, you know, overbearing or, um, you know, too serious and and things. And I just think that's so hard because she really does take on head of the household and considering she's a woman, and she really does take on head of the household, and considering she's a woman and she can't actually, you know she can't herself go out and get provisions, I think that's that is quite a lot for her to bear, because it's even more strained. It's not like head of the household like John, who's actually got money coming in, or Edward, even Like that guy totally just neglects his job. It like it actually blows my mind slightly, like the guy's like a patriarch in a patriarchal society and yet he's like trying to be number one victim. It's like no society's set up for you, friend, like think about Eleanor, oh my God.

Speaker 1: 26:06

There's even the time where she just wants to check that Willoughby has proposed to Marianne and it's not her place to ask. She needs to convince her mum to ask marianne and she can't do that and it's just like her mind would be put at rest if, if she had the power to be able to ask that question herself, she would have asked it. So it is just incredibly, incredibly frustrating. Um, also going off what you said, I'm skipping a bit to the end where marianne apologizes to eleanor.

Speaker 1: 26:34

I did like that. She took the time to acknowledge and to apologize and to say like this is what I've done wrong. But I did find the whole part where she's like and now I'm going to change my personality and I'm going to become a lot more studious and this is going to help me change my emotional temperament. I was not a big fan of that because I don't think Eleanor ever really asked Marianne to change who she is. She kind of just asked Marianne to listen and the first half of that apology acknowledges that and kind of works towards doing that better, but then to be like I need to change who I am, I'm like that's a bit. It's dramatic, which is in line with Marianne's temperament. But it feels quite like a big thing when Eleanor didn't ask for that or to be responsible for that change in her either.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Yeah, I feel like Marianne and her mum. They always jump to extremes, like. I feel like there's a bit where Mrs Dashwood does something similar, like about Willoughby or something, and she's just like, oh well, let's just sack off the whole thing entirely. Then, eleanor, if you don't think any of it's gonna work out like she's really dramatic and eleanor's like that's not what I'm saying, I'm just saying I think we need to, you know, go forward with caution, because really, what do we know about this guy? And she's right, I mean, in the end she is absolutely right and it is actually inappropriate the way that Marianne and Willoughby behave like, given that there isn't anything official between them. Eleanor's concern is valid and I really wish people had listened to her more, because the thing with Eleanor as well is people have a go at her because they think she's being selfish, but actually everything she always does is in the service of the people that she loves entirely true, entirely true.

Speaker 1: 28:17

And also, I think nobody can take a hint in this book like there's so many times Eleanor's trying to drop hints to the people around her like don't make this joke, don't take this for granted. Just tiny hints and nobody is able to pick up on them at all.

Speaker 2: 28:34

No, absolutely not. And I think maybe, if we bring this in now, I know we've got like a few more of a scene analysis we want to do, but I know I mentioned to you that I, when I was thinking about this topic and thinking about Eleanor, it really stood out to me how much she falls into the theory around eldest daughter syndrome. So this is like a concept coined by Katie Morton, who's like a marriage and family therapist, and she says you know, it's a term that describes the unique pressures and responsibilities placed on the oldest daughter of the family. And this is specifically things like that you kind of bear more of the burden, that you're more responsible for some of the siblings, um, that you kind of repress your emotions more to try and help emotionally regulate those around you, um, and so I think this is very much true.

Speaker 2: 29:26

Something that's really stood out to me this time reading is how neglectful mrs dashwood is of eleanor. Um, it's actually kind of disturbing in some instances, um, but that Eleanor cannot rely on anybody else, that she has to stand alone, um, one, one quote that just really hits hard for me is um, mrs Eleanor like reflecting quite early on about how she can't basically she can't find a confidant in, in anybody. After she finds out that Lucy and Edward are engaged, and she says well, she thinks, from their counsel or their conversation she knew she could receive no assistance. Their tenderness and sorrow must add to her distress, while her self-command would never receive encouragement from their example, nor from their praise. She was stronger alone, and her own good sense so well supported her that her firmness was unshaken, her appearance of cheerfulness invaluable, as with the regrets so poignant and so fresh it was possible for them to be.

Speaker 1: 30:25

so, you know, she's hit so hard of all this emotion and it just, it really breaks my heart that she's like, no, I'm stronger alone, like there's nobody, that if I go to anybody else they're going to try, and well, they're going to make it harder because they're going to be in hysterics, and so I have to bear this alone yes, this was actually the quote that I read that made me think oh, I want to dig in more to Eleanor's feelings and emotions throughout this book, because it's just such a good quote of the intense not only the intense loneliness but the intense determination that she has, because she acknowledges that she's stronger alone and that their advice is not going to be good enough and she's not like well, I don't care, she just loves them so much that she's like okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna be firm, I'm gonna be unshaken.

Speaker 1: 31:14

And that just takes so much power and strength that I find quite admirable for her to do that, not only for herself and for, but also for the people that she loves. And I think, yeah, it's a good driving factor for, like all of the choices that she makes to the novel and I'm happy that ultimately it does bring her happiness. But yeah, it's a very classic case of eldest child syndrome and I was wondering is she the eldest child or is her brother older than her?

Speaker 2: 31:54

so there's a, there's a specific um kind of. Well, the specific syndrome is for eldest daughters, so it doesn't even matter if you're not. The eldest child is the burden that the eldest daughter in particular pays, because the eldest daughter, compared to the son, is often expected to do more things like um helping raise children, etc. Which we do see with Eleanor. I'll get up the list. Actually, let me have a look.

Speaker 1: 32:12

I find that really interesting because I'm also in a lineup of four and when I was reading Eleanor I was actually thinking to myself she has middle child syndrome. I was like she seems like a middle child and I remember reading this and thinking, oh no, she's the oldest child. But rereading it I was like, oh yeah, she's a brother and there's Margaret. So actually she falls somewhere in the middle. Yeah, yeah, falls into both.

Speaker 1: 32:36

And I do think sometimes the oldest child can have some of the like drama and freedom and even though they are like the head of the family especially, as you said, he's a brother he is able to just do things for himself and not think about the rest of his siblings whatsoever. They're not his responsibility. He's going to get married and he's going to have a wife, which he does, and then that's his new sense of responsibility. That's when it kicks in and you can definitely see that from the choices that he makes, whereas Eleanor has to think about herself, but she's also thinking about the siblings that come next, and I think that's where the like elder daughter syndrome really comes through for her.

Speaker 2: 33:15

Yeah, some of the lists that fall into it are you have an intense feeling of responsibility. You're an overachiever, a type A, very driven. You worry a lot and probably have anxiety. You struggle with people pleasing behaviours. You have a hard time placing and upholding boundaries. You resent your siblings and family. Anxiety. You struggle with people pleasing behaviors. You have a hard time placing and upholding boundaries. You resent your siblings and family. You struggle with feelings of guilt. You have difficult. You have a difficult time in your adult relationships.

Speaker 2: 33:38

Um, and I think eleanor does like a lot of her issue with lucy, I think, is that she wants to uphold like propriety, like she doesn't want to break the trust of lucy. Even though lucy's horrible and terrible to eleanor in particular, she still doesn't want to break that trust and like expose their engagement. Like she keeps the secret from everybody, as lucy requests. In part of me is also like I can kind of get that too, because sometimes I'm just like why wouldn't you just tell people? Because like how? I'm just like why wouldn't you just tell people? Because like how ridiculous. Or sometimes I think why wouldn't you just go to Edward and be like what's going on, friend? Like this is bizarre. But then I'm also like, what do you say to people Like, even if Eleanor was to discuss her own feelings, what does she actually say to people Like other than like Marianne's stuff?

Speaker 2: 34:28

I, I really liked edward, but edward actually has this something with someone else. So I'm not even sure if edward likes me. Like for me, I would really struggle to speak to someone about it because I'd feel like there wasn't something tangible there, like I wouldn't be able to just be like well, you guys saw me together and everything happened. Like we don't even really see eleanor and Edward together. We just have like a brief paragraph that says that you know, they spent fun time together. People are expecting that they they have something going on, but we don't actually witness any of it ourselves. We don't have anything tangible to go off. So I kind of get why Eleanor doesn't talk to people about it, because I know I would feel like am I just being crazy? Am I being delusional here?

Speaker 1: 35:06

and sometimes that's better to keep in your own head and I think that's why the gaslighting is so effective here, because there is nothing tangible for her to hold on to, to be like, and this validates my feelings.

Speaker 1: 35:17

This is why I was thinking this kind of way, which is really sad because she doesn't deserve that. But also on that list there you said set, they struggle setting boundaries. And I think that's really interesting, because I don't think Eleanor struggles with setting boundaries, but at the same time I do, because when she was having that conversation with Lucy, at some point Lucy was like if you tell me to cut off this relationship, I will. And multiple times Eleanor says it's completely improper for you to ask me to do that or for me to give you advice on that, and multiple times she's like I am setting this boundary, I will not give you advice on how to do this relationship that I don't support. And then Eleanor kind of has to talk in some ways or form. So in some ways I'm like she does try to set her boundaries, she does try to hold that thought, but then in some ways the manipulation does get under her skin as well.

Speaker 2: 36:22

I feel like it's just dealing with terrible narcissistic people, though, because, I agree, I think she actually does try and set boundaries. We even see that when Willoughby shows up. So Willby shows up, she says like I do not want to hear this, please stop, I don't want to hear this conversation, please leave. And he's just like, oh no, no, it carries on. So I think actually it's not that she can't set boundaries. There's so many like intense, crazy people in this novel that she has to deal with it's tricky.

Speaker 1: 36:48

So, from this, from what we've talked about, who is the villain here? Is it because Eleanor is too sensible? Is it because Lucy's just too good at manipulation, or is it because Willoughby is just rubbish?

Speaker 2: 37:05

or is it a combination? See, I think lucy's a terrible person because I think it's just cruel to. Um, I'm gonna I'm actually gonna blow your mind here because you've given me those three options and I'm gonna say the villain's someone entirely different. Um, I actually think the worst person in this situation is edward, because he set those two women up to be rivals. He has given attention to both of them. He's aware that they know each other.

Speaker 2: 37:29

Now I think he's in the wrong. I think he should have gone to Eleanor and come clean and said, like I did have I do have feelings for you, but I had all this going on in the past and I cannot like abandon my responsibility there and he should have come clean with Lucy. Lucy, I know we were engaged, but that was a long time ago and I actually have formed feelings for someone else. I'm happy to uphold the engagement, but I want you to know the truth. Actually, I do have feelings for Eleanor.

Speaker 2: 37:54

Honestly, the biggest villain's Edward, in my opinion, like he, because he then causes this rift, and I think we see this a lot in society, and it's something that actually really bothers me is often, you know, women become they butt heads and they become rivals and they end up hating on each other. And it's actually because they've centered this particular male in this situation, whereas he himself, he could have eased so much of that, he could have meant that they didn't need to have this situation going on privately but do you think Eleanor would feel better knowing that he did return her feelings but, because of a sense of responsibility, was never going to be able to return that?

Speaker 2: 38:34

I don't know. I don't know because Mary, for Marianne, she said that she preferred to know that he had feelings for her and that it just didn't work out and that eased her mind. Eleanor's never under the impression that he doesn't have feelings, like she's very steadfast, like she's always. Like he loves me, like he loves me. That's just, even though he's got this other stuff going on. She's like the ultimate manifester because she's like third party does not exist.

Speaker 1: 39:03

He loves me and I think actually she'd be like I admire the fact that you are living up to obligations. It's probably something that she would do as well, so she'd probably be like I admire that about you, even though it breaks my heart yes, and she does that a lot.

Speaker 2: 39:21

Like she constantly compares edward to other, like men that come up, like she sees something with like willoughby and she's like, oh well, edward would never do that.

Speaker 2: 39:28

Like she thinks this to herself constantly and sometimes I think, does eleanor fall in love with edward or does she fall in love with the fantasy of who edward could be? Because I actually never think edward shows up as the person that she kind of fantasizes about and like she says about like him being steadfast to her all this time. But I feel like if someone truly loved you, they wouldn't want you suffering, and so I just feel like he would have, even if he didn't say I have feelings for you, but came clean and said it was wrong of me to, you know, spend all this time with you and for us both to start catching feelings, only for me to be engaged with another woman. That was wrong of me to do and I'm sorry and I you know I didn't mean to lead you on or I don't know, but I just think like there needs to be an honesty there, like if you really care about somebody like you, like running off is really not.

Speaker 1: 40:18

That's not showing up as your best self? It's not. And do they have a conversation towards the end where she does call him out for his behavior and she's like why were you hanging out with us when? What was that? Willoughby? I feel like actually evan and willoughby kind of did similar things in the end honestly I I think they're both problematic.

Speaker 2: 40:38

And what's really interesting to me at the end is eleanor. She has this whole essay about to marianne about the way that marianne would have suffered had she married willoughby um, about like how she would have been poor and Willoughby wouldn't have prioritised her and stuff. When I was reading it I was like I could quite easily make the same argument for her future with Edward. I think by the end of the book it does say that she's really happy. But I'm just like I could quite easily see the same scenario is coming about because neither person takes responsibilities for their terrible actions.

Speaker 1: 41:09

Really they just happen to get away with it yeah, I feel like, ultimately, this book is not about the men because, as you said, edwin is so absent for all of it. Willoughby is essentially a plot device to some degree, and marianne and even though though Colonel Brandel is there a lot, colonel Brandon in a romantic sense with Marianne is not there a lot we don't actually see them interacting a lot either. So, yeah, it makes me question if, like, the men are even that important. They're just here to create drama and happy endings and it's actually about the sister's journey and how they get to their relationship and how they develop I think so, and I think significantly about eleanor.

Speaker 2: 41:54

I think it'd be good to talk about the other scene that, um, you mentioned in our prep about. When you know, there's that confusion where the servant sees that sees mr fer in Lucy Steele and they're married and that's what he relates to, the Dashwoods and they are. They are assuming because this is obviously what was the case that he's referring to Edward and Lucy. Um, and I just think it's yeah, this whole like moment when, like Eleanor's having to like process, everybody keeps looking at her as well because they're like oh, this is so terrible, like you know that you're like really sad, and Eleanor's, like I've been dealing with this on my own for months like let's be clear yeah, and Eleanor is so careful that Marianne doesn't hear that um Willoughby is married firsthand with people around or from the public and yet for her that's not returned.

Speaker 1: 42:46

Everybody's there, everybody's looking at her when she first hears that he's married and she just has to hold it together.

Speaker 2: 42:53

That is so heartbreaking yeah, and something that really bothers me again is that Marianne, like she makes it about her again. She, it says that Marianne gave a violent start, fixed her eyes upon Eleanor, saw her turning pale and fell back in her chair in hysterics. Mrs Dashwood, whose eyes, as she answered her servant's inquiries, had intensively taken the same direction, was shocked to perceive by Eleanor's countenance how much she really suffered and a moment afterwards alike, distressed by Marianne's situation, knew not on which child to bestow her principal attention. Again, it's like she's like, oh, I'm surprised. Like you know, eleanor's actually really suffered from this situation. But do I comfort Marianne or Eleanor? It's like, how much neglect is in that. Like I can't either.

Speaker 1: 43:36

There's supposed to be only one answer here and the answer is Eleanor. I do appreciate the fact that the mum has a moment where she's like I have misunderstood my child, because she has completely misunderstood her child and I'm glad that she owns that. But she never really atones for that mistake. She doesn't make it up to Eleanor, she doesn't give Eleanor her due. And this is when I give Marianne credit because she is trying, like she's still going to be herself, but she is at least trying to hold it together. But I just can't believe. The mother's response is like oh my gosh, I totally underestimated her. Who do I support? I know she doesn't try to talk to her about it or anything.

Speaker 2: 44:19

Yeah, and you're so right. That paragraph that comes later when Mrs Ashwood actually reflects on her actions toward Eleanor, it's really bad. It says she now found that she had erred in relying on Eleanor's representation of herself and justly concluded that everything had been expressively softened at the time to spare her from the increase of unhappiness, suffering as she had then suffered for Marianne. She found that he had been misled by careful, the considerate attention of her daughter to think the attachment which she had once so well understood, much slight, much slighter in real life I'm sorry, just give me a second Much slighter in reality than she had been.

Speaker 2: 44:59

Want to believe, orive, nay, almost unkind to Eleanor, that Marianne's affliction, because more acknowledged and more immediately before her, had too much engrossed her tenderness and led her away to forget that in Eleanor she may have had a daughter suffering almost as much, certainly with less provocation and greater fortitude. Doesn't that just break your heart? That's just like I, just like wow. But also, like you said, she has this realization I really neglected my eldest child. She's really been suffering in the same way, if not more, because she's had to bear it alone. She's not had this, this ability to express herself. Um, but that's just it, that's it, that she's just like.

Speaker 1: 45:42

She just acknowledges it and she doesn't apologize or anything it's, I have to admit, giving giving it to Austen here. That paragraph is so beautifully written, even though it's so tragically heartbreaking at the same time, and I think it leads on well to acknowledge the fact that when Eleanor gets happy news, she also runs off and enjoys it by herself. And in some ways I'm like you, go girl, you enjoy it by yourself, don't give anybody else credit. Like you, have your happy moment by yourself. And it's also a bit bittersweet that she does feel like if I'm gonna have any extreme emotion, I need to be by myself for it to process it, because she's used to that. But also, I think, yeah, the fact that she can find happiness and understand sadness in herself and be so strong. I think it's something a lot of people try to achieve. So in some ways I'm glad for her, but in some ways it is just ultimately so heartbreaking yes, I think I agree.

Speaker 2: 46:44

I think it's actually amazing because she does go on like such a personal journey Eleanor does like. I think it's actually amazing because she does go on like such a personal journey Eleanor does. Like I think everybody focuses on Marianne's journey because it's so obvious, because it's so in your face, um, but actually Eleanor goes on such a private inner journey which I actually think is pretty, a pretty incredible one, like she has to go it alone, she has to process all of these emotions, has to go through so much and, like I said, she's kind of like this ultimate manifester because she genuinely like she has all of this like stuff fired at her constantly from Lucy and she is still so sure of Edward's feelings and she doesn't waver on that. She's like, well, he has feelings for me. Lucy's a terrible person.

Speaker 2: 47:26

I'll carry on and I kind of love that because I do think she does show this stoicism which I think is really admirable, particularly in this situation and what she has to bear, because I think she really doesn't have it easy. I actually think this is really common in Austen's work, that often it's the people who are the most repressed who often have the most suffering, like we actually see that with like people like jane bennett, jane fairfax, like they often suffer the most and even if they do end up with a happy ending, it's almost like a relief as opposed to a victory absolutely agree.

Speaker 1: 47:58

I think it's admirable what she can achieve, but no one person should have to achieve that on their own. And rather than I think it being a failing of eleanor eleanor communicating her emotions because you do see her try to communicate them several times across the novel I'd rather say that in her, because she's so good at understanding their emotions and she does give them little windows where they could get into her emotions, but they just consistently fail to take them and they, rather than her needing to learn to be a bit more like Marianne or a bit more like her mum, I think they need to learn to be a bit more like her. So I think that's. My conclusion is that Eleanor is okay and she does her best and she does try to set her boundaries and set out her feelers, but other people need to get on Eleanor's level yes, I love she sets the standard.

Speaker 2: 49:03

Yeah, I agree, I think that she is. She's very much a great listener, and I think a lot of people in the rest of the novel they really fail to do that. They're so self-centered and they're just so consumed in their own world. And Eleanor seems to be one of, if not the only, character who seems to be able to recognize everyone else around her and not just be centered in her own universe. Exactly in her own universe. Exactly. Yeah, I love it though. Yay, is there anything else that you want to add?

Speaker 1: 49:35

I don't think so. I think we've done a very good job of like digging deep into it. It's been like such a great discussion. I'm seeing Edward in a whole new light. I've never really thought about him that much oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2: 49:47

I know I feel like I'm going. I did an episode on him where I was like singing his praises like a few years ago, and then it's like reread and I've like, the older I get, the more I really dislike him and I've got so many problems. So I'm gonna have to like readdress the episode and just be like friend. I have new thoughts I have. I have problems. I think he's a really lovely person, but I just don't think he has business data and I just think, no, like friend, no, especially not eleanor, who I think she deserves to be with somebody who can let her one, let her guard down and two, just be a little bit more like you know, free and burden burden free is what I think I. I would love her to be with somebody that can take on more of the weight and so that she doesn't have to.

Speaker 1: 50:29

That's true, and I also think this is such a good testament to how re-readable Jane Austen is, because I did read Sense and Sensibility years ago as a teenager and I remember just relating to Eleanor for so many reasons, none of which are the reasons that I related to Eleanor this time around, and yet I still related to Eleanor so much. So there's just so much you can discover when you reread them and your feelings can change and your opinions change. And maybe next time, if I reread it this time examining the men in the story a bit more, I might be like there's a lot more here that I need to peruse through still yes, oh my goodness.

Speaker 2: 51:05

Well, you definitely have to message me, we need to do me. We need to discuss, but this has been so fantastic. Do you want to let my listeners know where they can find you on all socials and everything?

Speaker 1: 51:17

Yes, Thank you so much for having me. I've had such a great time. And I'm Olivia's Catastrophe over on YouTube Also Olivia's Catastrophe on YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok. And then I'm Olivia's Catastrophe on Twitter Amazingiktok. And then I'm olivia's catastrophe on twitter amazing.

Speaker 2: 51:31

You're on all platforms. I love that, um, and I will tag all of olivia's information below so that you can find everything easy. Um, yeah, that's everything from us today and I will see you in another episode.

Speaker 1: 51:42

© transcript Emily Beynon.